You just reminded me how long it has been since really did anything in High Sec. I completely forgot that they fixed that problem. Cheers for the reminder 
The problem is the lack of AOE, the single target missiles are an utter joke. A Citadel in HS is a single BS worth, maybe 2 or 3 for a Fort or Keepstar, and they donāt scale very much, since you are stuck with just single target missile launchers even for a keepstar which do hardly anything to their targets. Which means at present itās basically attacking fleet vs defending fleet with the Citadel irrelevant nearly every time. Not like Null/WH fights with the bomb launchers & Doomsday.
If you could engage multiple targets as a Citadel based on size with the missile launchers (& possibly the other modules also) they become more of a threat, not quite sure how that would work as a UI, but it would avoid the Citadel itself becoming an instant doom machine since it canāt just alpha single targets, but it would be able to put significant pressure on multiple targets allowing them to work as a force multiplier.
Post thought. HS corps can totally bring fleets of 20 or 30. They canāt bring fleets of 250+ but writing them off as not able to bring 20 is just silly.
On the AOE, thatās kind of difficult given the possibility of completely neutral players being affected, combined with CONCORD mechanics and what highsec represents for people just going about their business (ie. CONCORD retribution for anyone that agresses illegally).
On the issue of attacking fleet v defending fleet, thatās perfectly in keeping with POS mechanics (ie. pre-Citadel mechanics).Reinforcing a POS is generally done when there is no defender around (or they have been defeated), so the attacking force can incapacitate the POS defenses. When it comes to the final timer for a POS, itās generally attacking fleet v defending fleet with no real support from the POS at all.
The owners of structures should have to defend them, or risk losing them. Thatās EVE.
All that aside, highsec has the lowest level of structure destruction (and Citadels are still being destroyed less that POSs in highsec). Clearly, outside a war, requiring at least 2 weeks of wardec fees to kill a Citadel, the mechanics of highsec in general provide a deterrent to attack.
As it is, looks like Citadel changes coming sooner rather than later to make them more engaging to engage:
V[quote=āNevyn_Auscent, post:22, topic:9017ā]
Post thought. HS corps can totally bring fleets of 20 or 30. They canāt bring fleets of 250+ but writing them off as not able to bring 20 is just silly.
[/quote]Weāve gone over this before. 20 people time 1.5 hours is 30 player hours. No group is going to waste 30 hours (about 3B ISK in opportunity costs at 100M ISK/ hour) to shoot a structure that drops nothing and costs a fraction of that. And that would be just to deal with the structure, not any defence fleet that happens show up.
Structures needs to support conflict by groups of all sizes, not have artificial bars of entry where if you canāt form a fleet of X size you canāt participate. That was clearly the design goal of the original entosis mechanic and although that was compromised on for the sake of giving players something to shoot, it is something CCP was going for. The number of players on each side needs to be somewhat balanced and artificial amounts of tedium that the defender can exploit with no effort need to be minimized, or tedium tanking becomes a thing, much like we have already in many cases, at least if you want players to actually fight over them.
I think your idea of some sort of AoE solution to make them a better force multiplier in highsec is a good one as it scales with the opponent fleet size. Unfortunately, AoE weapons seems out, but perhaps there could be some AoE repping or cap transfer for the defenderās fleet? Or super strong command burst? Or maybe a damage buff for the defenders although such a mechanic doesnāt really exist currently and may have other issues.
2 Likes
This is a good idea.
The Citadel as a force multiplier, rather than a damage restriction being a force limiter.
That way, a smaller force of defenders would still be able to oppose a larger force, which was a major part of the reason for the damage cap (ie. the give the little guys a chance).
Personally, this approach (buffs for the defenders) is a far more positive way to go about Citadel defenses than the damage cap and minimum time on grid.
Some command burst functionality would make a lot of sense. The Citadel already has a repair ability, requires you to stop shooting for 60 seconds, but it is there. However, a generous command burst would certainly make them more effective in supporting their defending fleet.
But the subcap missiles are seriously deficient in aiding in defense. Personally, I would prefer something along the lines of Heavy Artillery and Heavy autocannons over missiles for Upwell defenses.
Wrong. There are other goals than just kills ā¦ ISK ā¦ namely dominating and control highsec trade and manufacturing.
PH is trying that for half a year by killing any opposing market hub around trade hubs with their unlimited manpower. Also donāt forget that all notable highsec merc groups are PL pets and blue to each other.
The only reason why projects like āPlanet Vā still exist, is because of the delays given by the current timer and wardec mechanics, allowing for replacements and reasonable ISK tanking.
You can argue, that is EvE ā¦ that everything should be controlled and owned by the strongest entity in New Eden, but Iām not sure whether this is a healthy direction for the game. Because the consequence is easy, join the big boys or get out.
Some damage cap is needed. Especially with no logistics needed. Or it becomes too easy to burn it down in 60 seconds for larger groups which prevents any kind of positional hit and run disruption by a smaller group to cause enough damage to force an attacker off. If high sec structures especially get significantly strengthened in some way it could certainly be eased a bit, but that timer is still needed for a good fight that allows for tactics.
As has been said. Otherwise itās just everyone joins the biggest group.
Another reason for high sec having lower destruction rates is the over proliferation of npc stations. Which Iāve been calling for a massive reduction in them to make things like sector index control possible and therefore relevant fighting over high sec sectors properly. Though high sec should have the lowest ratio of destruction anyway. And if be interested to see the breakdown on where citadel actually are located. There could actually be fewer in high sec also.
Not really. New Eden has a paucity of conflict drivers and aside from the extrinsic reasons to explode a citadel, say like taking sov or evicting a wormhole, you named the only two plausible reasons to shoot an Upwell structure - market fees and industry index - neither of which apply to the Astrahus in highsec. Even the other two reasons seem to have generated zero conflict outside of Perimeter and perhaps one or two other systems.
Upwell structures either need to be not a tedious grind to attack, or provide a reward to shoot - either directly in the form of loot drops, or indirectly in the form of access to something else limited like the market module or POCOs, for people to bother fighting over them, you know, a conflict driver. Otherwise, the majority of them will just sit there uncontested until the day the server gets shut off.
Eve players will go to great lengths to invent reasons to shoot one another and generate content, but slogging through a collective 5-10 hour uncontested structure grind is not something that most will do more than once without a more tangible reward at the end than a pretty explosion.
Agree on Astrahus, but I would approach that problem from different angles.
Make it so, that unused (however this is defined) Upwell structures become easy targets. This can be done by a base upkeep cost for the invulnerable schedule.
But when we talk about reasons to fight in highsec I see the following:
- ransom / protecting money
- loot
- broker fees, taxes
Especially the first one is a well used replacement for the missing loot, not only around Jita.
The problem with the new structures and wardecs in general in highsec is IMO, that the defender gains nothing from being attacked. The defender can only lose, money or assets. There are no escalations or good fights in highsec, the attacker takes no risk.
Except it does.
It may not in a direct manner but in a stationless system the Ast is where they will keep most of their assets since it is more secure than the EC. Ok sure, someone ācouldā just live out of an EC, but then they already only have 2 timers and a weaker structure to start with in which case they are easy to remove.
So in order to kick someone out of a stationless system you probably have to blow up their citadel. Hey this seems kinda like Null except without as good resources nowā¦ and a wardec needed.
The problem here is not the Citadels, the problem is the lack of stationless systems in highsec. Change that and you change conflict drivers in highsec. And sure, NPC structures should still be around, but they donāt have to permit capsuleer docking. āConcerns over capsuleer combat near the undocking areas of the station have resulted in many stations closing their docks to capsuleers, preferring to loose some docking fees over the constant damage to the stationā
As for the fact that itās only causing conflict in places like perimeter at the moment,ā¦ those are the only places in highsec getting a high concentration of structures also, most systems are pretty empty if not entirely empty.
Add some more conflict drivers tied to structures into highsec, like moon mining in stationless 0.5 systems but at far lower rates than null, and watch even more wars happen over said moons, or just to gank the mining fleet when a chunk is expected to arrive.
@Tipa. To answer the defenders reason to fight, there should be something that is currently making the defender isk that the attacker either wants, or wants to stop. The defender is fighting to maintain their current gain. Obviously this only applies if they have a current gain that is relevant which is why the nerfed state of highsec structures is bad currently, as it means the gain isnāt really worth it in most cases.
Dont they only get 2 timers to begin with? Reinforcement when they hit armor (#1) and reinforcement when they hit structure (#2). Or are you also talking about the vulnerability cycles?
Not quite.
Just looking at the Freeport Citadels and Engineering Complexes:
There are several regions that have a reasonable density.
In running through the 23 highsec regions, I also counted non-Freeport Citadels/ECs in 46 random systems, which had a median of 2.5. So that roughly puts the number of Citadel/ECs in highsec at 3600-6500 across the 1212 systems (with a large error margin on the upper end due to the small sample size for non-freeports).
Certainly The Forge has the highest density compared to other similarly sized highsec regions (Blackrise slightly higher, but only a few HS systems), but there are systems in a few other regions that have a high density of freeports.
Taking the destruction data for highsec from earlier (20.8 Citadels/ECs per week in highsec being destroyed on average this year), thatās only 0.3-0.5% destruction. Whether that is too high or too low (roughly 4-6 years to turn over all Citadels based on current numbers and destruction rate) is going to be a personal judgement.
For me, it doesnāt really fit the āBuild your dreams. Wreck their dreamsā that Citadels were sold as:
2 Likes
So you agree with me.
Sure, removing most of the NPC stations would increase the utility of Upwell structures and thus the extrinsic reasons to fight over them. Fine with me. That would be a bold move and really breathe some life into game play around using structures to control resources in a specific highsec system. However, highsec is suppose to be the playground for solo, new and casual players, many of which will not have access to their own stations. This might not be an issue with a healthy ecosystem of player-owned stations offering them services, but something that does come with some risk.
Do it CCP! You promised us almost 5 years ago that the Empires were ālosing their gripā and that we would get more control of the universe but if anything, Empire space is more NPC-controlled than ever. Time to take real steps towards that goal. Letās stop nerfing the players and their tools, and nerf the NPCs for once and make some space for the players to actually take more control of the universe.
How would that foster fights? Just drop your own, there is no limit how many can be anchored per system. It isnāt so that the current Upwell structures occupy some rare resource, and need to be destroyed to claim the resource for you.
This will be different with the moon mining stuff ā¦
Itās technically two timers, but they need to be shot at three times (outside of wormholes). Kill the shields -> Timer -> Kill armor -> Timer -> Kill the structure.
I suppose I could have worded it better. Basically, though, Iām saying to get rid of the armor timer. Shield -> Timer -> Armor + structure. In nullsec Capital systems, you would maintain the current iteration of Shield -> Timer -> Armor -> Timer -> Structure.
Not to derail the topic : none AOE weapons need a buff for structures. We need a T2 battleship that can field fighters (The hardass in me wants to say one flight of heavies vs standard fighters) Give them a 500km lock range. Move Upwells to 750km lock range. Enjoy eve.
Because it becomes possible to ācontrolā a system if there are no NPC stations.
Obviously itās not the only conflict driver you could put into high sec, but itās one conflict driver. And it makes high sec corps more significant and able to grow to a slightly larger size naturally.
Or you could just make the timers 24hrs apart like in wormholes so blowing one up only takes 3 days.
I donāt know why the timers are so different in K-space it actually confuses me a little as I see no reason.
My opinion is:
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That almost all NPC Stations Except starter stations and lore stations and some others should be removed.
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All remaining will be the only ones to seed BPOās and Skill Books.
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Each NPC Corp and faction in EvE is going to have 1-3 stations that are theirs. Rest is removed.
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These stations wonāt have a market. But you will be able to buy all items from something that resembles the LP store just better looking and not nearly as ā ā ā ā .
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Race-specific items can only be gained from that race. Including BPO and Skill Books.
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There need to be BPOās for everything in the game that does not account service or skill books. (All T2 Bpoās will be made into 1000 run BPCās, no faction BPOoās obviously.)
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In addition, invulnerability timers on everything are removed. So is reinforce mode. Instead, you can now fit a module that needs 1 week to repair which you can either trigger manually that will make something invulnerable for 24 hours or it will automatically trigger when it hits Structure.
For obvious reasons, ships canāt fit this module. -
This module is quite expensive and can only build. Think 300m+. Add a faction version that is slightly better for a much higher cost.
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Add a weekly cost to structures. You can think of it as maintenance fee. If this bill is not paid Shield will be instantly removed from the structure.
Balance structures so that the total health is:
x number and 50% is shield 20% Armor 30% Structure. The number to be tweaked obviously.
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Make it so asset safety has to be manually triggered from the station or by right-clicking station in space (in case you have been locked out)
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If people donāt do this 50% of their items have will drop. (random which items) Rest will be automatically moved to nearest NPC station. with a 10% fee associated with them.
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Make it so when a structure gets attacked everyone gets an eve-mail if they have any assets at that station. A new eve-mail will be sent out if the attack is still happening 1 hour later.
It should also send out an eve-mail if the structure hits armour and when it hits the structure. To give people the chance to get their ā ā ā ā out.
All of this should happen over a year or 2 and should be a gradual thing.
Just my opinion. Mostly brainstorming things.
Basically, this will make EVE Online a more immersive and sandbox game than it already.