War dec corps targetting rookie corps solution: Permanent fleet


(Mikhem) #1

In CSM minutes there is mention about war dec corps targetting rookie corps.
“Sort points out that the wardec system needs to be addressed to help retain players and avoid the harassment which is occurring from war dec corps targeting rookie corps.”

Question is why rookies put up corporations? For team play perhaps? Solution could be as simple as expanding fleet system. People could join in to fleet as permanent members. You cannot put war dec on fleet.

Comments are welcome for my idea!


(mkint) #2

My idea has been to have a sort of scoring system for corps. It would have a lot of utility for different game mechanics, but in the case of wardec a lower score corp would basically be what you’re describing. As your score grows (you get more experience in the game, you get more wealthy) it is assumed you have had the opportunity to educate yourselves, and you become vulnerable to wardecs.

Your idea has also been called “social corps” and I used to think that was the answer. It has been floating around for years, including in CCP’s ranks. The social corp idea and the CSM’s idea (corp status depending on structure ownership) both have just 2 rankings of corps which I think isn’t flexible enough, not fluid enough. It also sends the wrong message.

Wardecs used to be fun. Wardecs ought to be fun. I think what ruined the fun in wardecs was the removal of the watchlist. I used to love getting wardecced (never decced anyone myself.) A wardec was personal, a game of hunt and counter-hunt. It was the most fun part of the game and now it’s a corpse. The problem with wardecs was ALWAYS a matter of education, it was NEVER a matter of imbalance.


(Anderson Geten) #3

watch list was free intel. Now you need to have an alt ready by a locator and use your money.


(mkint) #4

It wasn’t free intel. You had to research the corp, filter through killboards, implant spies. You had free intel on the CEO, and that was all. And even if it was free intel, so the hell what? I thought it was, you know, a game, where the objective is, you know, to be fun. Unless I’m mistaken of course.


(Anderson Geten) #5

no you didn’t. You just needed to right click, add as contact, watch list. Then you know when they log in and out.
That’s the definition of free intel.

It was not fun for people who didnt want to make war, but to chill .
You have the same feature now, but with a cost. This prevent wardecs from being the easy “let’s bash some noobs who just want to mine - for free” stupidity some were proud of.
Now you need to pay. You are only complaining that you can’t prey on noobs for free as you were before - for anything else, placing an alt in the corp will do it.


(mkint) #6

If “you know when they log in and log out” is free intel, then local is also free intel. Then the overview is free intel. Then d-scan is free intel. Then having the target locked is free intel. Dumb arguments are dumb. Collecting a list of targets so you know who to watch to begin with requires way more effort than than, say, the overview. Or are you one of those econ dropouts who think “minerals you mine yourself are free”? Because that’s the same retarded equivalency.

And no, I’ve never decced ANYONE before. For some reason, apparently it seems you have to be an asshat to have fun in a freakin’ video game. We’ve always been the PVE corp that knew how to use the tools to make the PVP corps run crying.

Accusing anyone having fun in a video game of automatically being shitheel borderline EULA violators is such a braindead stance, your opinion has no value. Literally, your “experience” in the field is basically “I suck, I got my ass kicked, I forgot which game I even logged in to and I shouldn’t speak on any topic in any way whatsoever…”

See the trick is, you have to not suck. The point where a player makes a deliberate decision that they WANT to suck, they should absolutely get wardecced to hell and driven out of the game. If you don’t like getting your ass kicked across the map, then learn to not suck. That was only ever the weakness of wardecs before the nerf avalanche started… corps full of people that haven’t had the chance to learn the game. Other than that, the fight was ALWAYS as balanced as ANY PVP is ever going to be. Now the weaknesses of the wardec system is that they don’t lead to fights, so you might as well get rid of crimewatch altogether if you want PVP happening in your PVP game. And EVE is a PVP game. If you don’t believe it, then by definition, you suck at the game and should either stop sucking or stop playing.

edit: and you just made my argument for me that the watchlist is good. An aggressor is going to be able to get an alt into a newb corp and have full intel before there is even a sign of risk. A defender corp won’t ever get that quality of intel.


(Anderson Geten) #7

on that point I agree.
For the sentence after, you arguments make no sense. Being on a battlefield is not free intel.
Whatever, all I see is tears of people who can’t harass freely and now need to work to get that intel, as the people they were harassing before had to.
“it’s no fun”. Well, watching you is a lot of fun. So the fun is not gone, it just switched from you to me.

I stopped reading after this sentence, no more entertained. You crying is fun but your nonsense like “overview is free intel” is just boring.


(mkint) #8

Your opinion is invalid. Was that short enough to not overwhelm your reading capacity?


(Anderson Geten) #9

more tears.

An overview is the representation of a fight.
Intel is what guides you into chosing if, when and where to take a fight. If you are already fighting, you are not acquiring intel.


(Your Ex-Girlfriend) #10

All rookie corps are NPC corps, therefore cannot be wardeced.

If you’re starting your own corp, you should know what you’re doing. It’s a sign you no longer consider yourself a rookie.

There is no issue here. Not every corp succeeds.


(Nevyn Auscent) #11

How about we lift the barrier of entry to starting a corp. Lets make the corp skills have the 4 basic leadership skills to V, and Squad command V as well. Right now starting a corp is a couple of hours train, this turns it into a few weeks train.
Still not an epic number, but a number that will take a bit of focused training to do, and hopefully the pre reqs will give the person an idea that corps aren’t super easy to manage.
Lets also make the corp size reliant on the active CEO’s skills (or bonuses if we ever change that system), rather than a use one then move to make a new corp character.


(Joji Tidgeytoad) #12

I disagree with this, nevyn, if only because then it forces players to join a player-owned corp (the majority of which in the recruitment channel shout “COME TO NULL COME TO NULL”) and these corps aren’t aimed at new players at all, forcing them into doctrine ships and limiting their career choices right from the get go.

I made my own corporation because I started playing this game again with my brother, we didn’t want anything to do with a giant null blob alliance, didn’t want anything to do with a giant corp right from the get go, we started one for ourselves, for this group content so we could fly in space together and easily share our resources via the corporation we created.

We had war decs, if you’re not in an alliance you can simply take all your corp assets, disband your corp and create a new one, thus invalidating the war. We did this once to send a message to the corp who did declare war that we don’t care for their “elite pvp” we wanted to bum about trying lots of different things undisturbed for a while.

Granted now things are slightly different with the size, relations and content we run as a corp but that was the premise on which it was founded, a “party” for me and my brother to go run content in. So unless you introduce a grouping system that allows friends to fleet up, give you extra interaction options (like the ease of passing assets through a corp) then you can’t take away that quick training time to create your own corp.

What I was thinking the other day was what if war-declaring corps have to pay an increasing value of isk for every war they have active, so it increases exponentially when they get to say; 10 wars. That or perhaps, correlative to the size of the corporation have a cooldown timer in place following on from a war, a period in which no new wars are allowed to be declared against said corp (even if its just a day or two) to allow the more newbro corps to have a chance to grab some materials / ships even relocate if neccessary.

Just spitballing ideas at this point, but I think changing the skills to start a corp shouldn’t change unless a new better buddying up system is introduced.


(Donkyhotay) #13

I’ve never had a problem with wardecs that making an alt I never play CEO and everyone else leaving until it’s over didn’t fix. That being said, when I first started playing I thought that a wardec would be something personal between corps. That a war being declared from one group to another would happen for a reason like, competition over resources, revenge for shiploss/gank/scam, etc. However it seems like lots of groups will just blindly wardec anything that moves. While yes EVE is “everyone vs. everyone” I think that having some sort of limit on wardecs so that when they happen it’s “personal”, especially with smaller corps, would improve things. That being said I can’t think of any way of actually doing that without unbalancing things for the large groups.


(Fish Hunter) #14

This right here is the problem with wardecs. For almost every player its more enjoyable to go play another game or jump ship temporarily then put up with wardeccers.


(Nevyn Auscent) #15

Uh, no it doesn’t, you can stay in an NPC corp.
It just means it takes a bit longer till you can make your own corp, meaning people take it a bit more seriously.

Your other ideas like cooldown periods are all badly abusable &/or bypassable anyway.


(Daichi Yamato) #16

^^
The only power the attacker has is to choose who and when. Every other mechanic related to wardecs is in favour of the defender.

It’s essential to know who’s online in order to hunt them. Make it cost? So be it. But players need to know if a target even exists or is currently unobtainable.

^^
If we has social corps or a equivalent mechanic then starting/joining a ‘proper’ corp can be as good as a declaration of being ready for warfare.


(Your Ex-Girlfriend) #17

These are called NPC corps, and are currently immune from wardecs.


(Nevyn Auscent) #18

NPC corps don’t allow for slimming down, so you have to deal with the toxic players who are stuck in NPC corps because no player corp will have them also.
Social corps that still have to pay NPC taxes & have similar restrictions like no structures would be a good addition, though I would add some requirement to keep them above a certain size of ‘active’ players, (say 10), to make sure one man social corps didn’t become the norm.


(Peter Yurgin) #19

That is what the rookie NPC corps are for. You can’t war dec them. If you don’t want to pay the tax rate and go off into your own corp you will have to just deal with the threat of war decs. If you are making enough isk to care about the tax rate then you probably are going to be okay.


(Daichi Yamato) #20

NPC corps are filled with players that hate eve and teach other players to hate eve. Their toxicity as well as the misinformation spread within them is widely documented.

Just because you and your friends are not ready for wardecs today doesn’t mean you should be forced to endure the bottom dwellers in npc corps.