What do you think would bring eve into a new golden age

[ZhaoMin]

@Altara_Zemara since you brought up MER, and knows that ISK passes around can be a good thing, one of the very first few pictures shows clearly that ISK velocity has trend downwards and cause concern for 2 straight years.

The other thing is destruction. Destruction was always quantified in ISK equivalents, CCP never quantify into ship types and quantities. As we well know that price of ships in ISK has inflated several times than they were years before, it is safe to say, that the number of destruction instances have shrunk several folds despite continuous uptrending of the so called record breaking metric in the name and guise of “Destruction”.

It was obvious the changes made in the past years were ruining what many, if not most considered essential to Eve, and CCP who is behind those changes are solely responsible for those changes.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Elizabet_Forgrave

So if a miner mines ore and accumulates that in his hangar, what ISK did he convert into that ‘stuff’?

Was he mining Pedanticism ore ? Sure the whole process starts with ore. Its gotta start somewhere.

[Elizabet_Forgrave]

So you say things that are 100% categorically wrong and demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of the economy, then when people point out that you are wrong you call them pedantic? Are you still trying to pretend that it’s everyone else that’s dishonest in their arguments?

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Altara_Zemara

I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[Altara_Zemara]

@ZhaoMin

The other thing is destruction. Destruction was always quantified in ISK equivalents, CCP never quantify into ship types and quantities. As we well know that price of ships in ISK has inflated several times than they were years before, it is safe to say, that the number of destruction instances have shrunk several folds despite continuous uptrending of the so called record breaking metric in the name and guise of “Destruction”.

It depends on the distribution of ships being destroyed as to whether ‘fewer’ ships are being destroyed if the price rises but equivalent ISK loss remains the same or falls. I mean, one could have the same amount of ‘destruction’ ( number of ships destroyed ) via people flying smaller ships than before.

Do any stats on this exist ?

[Altara_Zemara]

@Elizabet_Forgrave

So you say things that are 100% categorically wrong

What is categorically wrong? Be specific.

[Elizabet_Forgrave]

Most of what you’ve said is wrong. This is a good starting point though:

@Altara_Zemara

Nothing is actually ‘destroyed’ when a ship is blapped.

As is this:

@Altara_Zemara

Without an ISK sink…those ISK can pass around indefinitely and there will never be fewer battlecruisers in the game.

[Altara_Zemara]

I was specifically referring to ISK not being destroyed. You were the one who said ‘removed from the economy’. I quite clearly made the point that the ISK value still exists.

Next.

[Elizabet_Forgrave]

@Altara_Zemara

I was specifically referring to ISK not being destroyed. You were the one who said ‘removed from the economy’.

You were replying to me and I was talking about assets. You shifted to ISK because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Kezrai called you out on it here:

What do you think would bring eve into a new golden age

I honestly just shake my head in disappointment at people who argue for the sake of arguing without the slightest clue about error-or-fact checking their own statements. Resource/production/consumption. Not a word about ISK. Tell me, where did the resources used in the construction of said ship and modules go to? As usual, you switched gears to support an argument that nobody was making, then try to pretend you were completely correct and everyone else is wrong, and then accuse other peopl…

You are actually incapable of being honest in any discussion, aren’t you? You’ve clearly demonstrated you have no idea how the economy works and now you’re trying to accuse everyone else of being wrong because you’ve been caught out.

@Altara_Zemara

I quite clearly made the point that the ISK value still exists.

What does this even mean? The “ISK value” is gone because the assets used to create that ship no longer exist in the game. If you mean “the ISK someone used to buy the ship still exists” then that’s probably true but it has absolutely nothing to do with ship destruction.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

@Altara_Zemara

I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Elizabet_Forgrave

You were replying to me and I was talking about assets.

Oh gawd…no I’m not going into one of your 200 post ’ x said this…y said that…so you’re saying that…’ endless rehashes to the point of ad nauseum.

I’ve said what I’ve said. If you don’t like it…tough.

[Elizabet_Forgrave]

That’s a funnny tactic. So you derail the conversation by making completely incorrect statements about ISK and the economy, then when you get called out on it you demand the context, then when the context is provided you complain that it was too many posts ago.

@Altara_Zemara

I’ve said what I’ve said. If you don’t like it…tough.

It’s not about liking it. What you’ve said is simply wrong. We’re trying to have a reasonable discussion about it but you’re unwilling to and instead you’re getting aggressive. I suspect your goal is to derail the thread enough to have the ISD remove all the posts so evidence of you being clueless is erased.

So I’ll just reiterate my on-topic points:
History suggests that when there was abundance there was a lot more activity and a lot more assets lost.

There are a lot more people now who don’t want losses as resources are more scarce. On a group level too, the market is thin enough that it couldn’t even support some of the old doctrines people would throw away on a single battle.

Following scarcity, there is a lack of consumption. When a ship is destroyed and some modules drop it’s only really the ones destroyed or not looted that are removed from the economy. Similarly when items are used, like ammo fired, drugs consumed, rigs or implants pulled, ships traded to paragon agents, etc, these are all consumption.

It’s not one-sided though, the economy also relies on production. It’s a balance. Ideally, production would be high, consumption would also be high and so there would be a rapid flow. That flow seems to be much slower now than in the past.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Elizabet_Forgrave

We’re trying to have a reasonable discussion

Very trying.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

Back to the OP, a set of issues that keeps coming up is that EVE:

• doesn’t have enough PvP and destruction
• doesn’t have enough motivation to consume/expend resources
• doesn’t have enough interactive (not instanced) content
• doesn’t have a process for training/motivating newbies to try PvP and small fleet actions

In a way, these concerns are all linked together under the design issue of creating engaging content that promotes conflict. MMOs often face a “content vacuum” because it’s not possible to generate new, theme-park content as fast as players can burn through it.

EVE is in the fortunate position that as a sandbox, if they can implement a “content engine”, then that engine will generate content all on it’s own over time. Examples are incursions, FW, Pochven/flashpoints, abyssals, in-game events, etc.

The problem is that a lot of these content engines are stale, or were poorly designed to begin with (incursions are rare and mechanistic, abyssals instanced, etc.). Also, few of them actually facilitate the learning process or encourage newbros to join in their first PvP/small fleet actions.

One possible content engine, which CCP took a stab at (but muffed up), is what Resource Wars could have been.

If RW had been something like, a resource anomaly is detected. 2 factions start building an acceleration gate to it, so the gates become visible with a timer when they become active. Now people in those 2 regions can see an RW site forming and have notice when it will start, they can get a team/fleet together.

The gates have limited capacity, both in size of ships and number of ships allowed. So each side is limited to the “jump capacity” of the gate. Once inside, fleets have 3 objectives:

• destroy the ships of the other side
• destroy any NPCs that are also mining the resource
• deliver “faction ore” to the hauler or facility inside.

Once the site/goal is complete, both sides get rewarded according to participation: the larger and better rewards get divided among the winning side, the smaller payments/rewards/LP go to the losers.

This is scalable, as you could have Class 1 sites in sec 1.0/0.9 space for learners, all the way to incursion-sized (or bigger) sites in null-sec. As the sites get bigger and tougher, you could also include special materials/resources needed for things like building and powering the player jump gates I mentioned earlier.

This barely even requires new code, since CCP already almost implemented something useful. It just needs some tweaks to balance fleet sizes, entry limitations, participation tracking and reward distribution.

Once implemented, it would be an automatic content engine operating across all security levels and player types, with room for PvP, PVE, fleeting, mining, production oriented players.

That’s the sort of ongoing conflict and content driver CCP should be looking at, something scalable that works for broad swaths of players across the entire game.

[Adm_Malkaviano]

@Kezrai_Charzai

doesn’t have a process for training/motivating newbies to try PvP and small fleet actions

I gotta give it to you, but just like all vets, you are disconnected from the reality of alpha. The last time I saw a vet do an alpha start over, they cheated, because alpha is just that, dog crap or hot garbage. I think I’m not being superfluous if I say the last ten years CCP talked about NPE and I BET THEY GONNA DO IT AGAIN IN 2023.

Point is, everything is cool and fun when you are in a fleet, if you don’t get primaried you get the sensation your presence matters and the game is cool. When you try to go by yourself, reality happens.

T1 is questionable, CCP changed the game so much based on NS wars, I really don’t know what ships are good at what, outside a doctrine they are all … hum … crap.

I love the vets using deadspace modules and discussing how newbies should play the game or how to fix the game for them, it’s entertaining … but not!

All the other points are on the right track, I guess. Let’s see the 2023 NPE presentation, CCP must got it right this time, if not, maybe 2024.

I don’t want to leave without proper explanation, since not everybody has the patience to READ and to THINK, let me point it out, I’m not saying T1 should be OMG OP!!! I’m saying when flying a ship, including a medium to large, your ship is not supposed to be a large piece of crap with some large buffer to instead of dying in 3 alpha strikes, you die in 6.

Ships lost their purpose, they are only HP buffers and resistance accumulation + bonus + capacitor size (GOD KNOWS WHAT METRIC CCP USES) + speed. It’s a cluster fuk, and only vets with enough skills and resources knows how to proper fit them.

And this comes from a guy who PLEXd doing L4 with a Gila, why? Because this game design is garbage. Gila >>> Raven in lots of L4 where CCP master design is to throw fleets and fleets of guristas on you. (yeah Guristas are the worst, they can missile you from one light year away for a huge motha fucka dmg).

Then people go to Marauders and cry when Safety appears, while AFK + drones is the easiest ■■■■ evar, even if it’s slower, who cares? Play some minegarbage or whatever.

Ships are broken, CCP cares too much about NS doctrines, those guys are not fking around, they gonna always adapt, and casual player is always taking the hit, if you see an alpha on a BS, well, he prob gonna leave the game soon. It’s useless, but to him, in his imaginary, he’s driving some POWAFUL and IMPONENT ship. Yeah, sure!

Motivation is, find the right corp and be a nice line soldier, or use your wallet. Exceptions exists, if one lives in a time zone where most multiboxers are sleeping, well go explore. Just don’t come back here trying to push the exception as the rule.

Again, I’m addressing only the last bullet point, alpha clone is just a try the game and get killed, some people will manage to omega, but most will just burn out. The people with CC will Omega in 1-3 days, and that’s why CCP is so aggressive with the marketing.

[Adm_Malkaviano]

It just occurred me, delete T1, bring navy to baseline would be a nice step.

Honest response to the thread.

[ZhaoMin]

@Adm_Malkaviano

It just occurred me, delete T1, bring navy to baseline would be a nice step.

Don’t delete ships, we need moar ships!

Actually, the fitting system can do with a overhaul (yes, rip the old one and build one from ground up anew), stop locking ships into doctrines altogether and let people come up with combinations. Right now, even building a character build in Diablo II is more interesting than fitting a ship in Eve, not to mention builds in PoE. Character/Equipment customization with no fixed formula/doctrine will throw a lot of dynamics in PVP and PVE, one’ll never know what to expect.

Though if any, CCP has been doing the opposite, instead dumbing down the system like you said, they removed a good chunk of meta drops and dumbed it down, then they dumbed down the ships themselves along with many other things, for a few rare exceptions that popped out every few odd years, the system is still dumbing down even after it was already solved - now CCP devs are just lazy and goes the way of “Money Solves Everything” mentality when implementing anything new or iterating old, including NPE.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Adm_Malkaviano

I gotta give it to you, but just like all vets, you are disconnected from the reality of alpha. The last time I saw a vet do an alpha start over, they cheated, because alpha is just that, dog crap or hot garbage.

Well, I applaud your passion, I guess? But you seem to be laboring under some misconceptions.

The first is that you’d be far more accurate to accuse me of being disconnected from the end-game of EVE. I don’t null-sec, I don’t large-fleet-battle, I don’t wardec. I don’t run multiple accounts at the same time. I don’t fly anything bigger than a battleship - it’s mostly BCs, cruisers, dessies and some frigates.

What I do have, is over 3 dozen pilots, every single one of whom did the then-current tutorial, then usually 2 but at least 1 set of career agents for start-up capital, then they mission, trade, and haul until they have over 40 million ISK. Then I generally send anything over 25 million to my “main” because pretty much anything I do, 25 mill is good for.

Your next misconception is that Alpha starts are hot garbage. If you look at the stats, a very large amount of PvP is conducted in Alpha-capable ships, with either T1 or alpha-usable T2 gear. Alphas can fly pirate ships, SoCT ships, Fleet and Navy ships. Yes, they’re not Tengus and Lokis, but they’ve got plenty to work with.

I’m not sure where you got the idea I’m a vet using deadspace modules, especially since the point you replied to is that new players specifically lack a viable process for entering PvP/small fleet at their level. And presenting a partial solution to that problem.

You talk about plexing your account in a Gila, which happens to be Alpha-flyable, even with some T2 gear.

I think you touch on a few valid points in your post, but you kind of buried it in all the “Alpha sucks” rambling. Maybe try again, with a bit sharper focus this time.

[Nujenif_Talvanen]

@Adm_Malkaviano

Point is, everything is cool and fun when you are in a fleet, if you don’t get primaried you get the sensation your presence matters and the game is cool. When you try to go by yourself, reality happens.

*rages in solo pvp alpha clone who killed a condor and hecate in a magnate
*rages in solo pvp alpha clone who then killed the same salty guy in a thorax with a stabber
*rages in you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about

[tutucox_Khamsi]

don’t alphas can fly faction ships?
they are powerful man …