When do ends justify means?

(Arrendis) #141

That doesn’t sound like disagreement, then.

(Aiko Danuja) #142

You made the following irrational argument:

A) Many people only purchase new commodities (ie: ore, or ships) because they forgot they already had the item
B) Therefore, destruction of these items does not affect the market price, as there is already a general surplus

What you are forgetting, is that people will forget about their ships and commodities irregardless of the rate at which those goods are consumed. Forgotten goods are, well, forgotten. Consequently, their existence has no bearing on the market.

I may have ten retrievers in my hangar, but if I have forgotten about them, they effectively do not exist. Therefore, the destruction of a single retriever will certainly create demand, which in turn will increase prices. Furthermore, if I do remember my ten retrievers, another has already been destroyed. Therefore, at most I can increase the market supply by nine, rather than ten. In both cases, a retriever has been permanently removed from the economy.

You also made the fallacious argument that the destruction of a single retriever has no significance on the larger economy. Once again, this is nonsense, as retrievers are not destroyed in isolation. Instead, entire mining fleets are wiped out on a daily basis. This certainly does have an impact on the economy.

If no mining ships were ever destroyed, and bots were free to mine 24/7 continuously in every asteroid belt across the galaxy - what do you think would happen to the price of tritanium?

(Arrendis) #143

And for all that, no, the destruction of entire mining fleets—the destruction of thousands of Retrievers and Covetors, hundreds of Orcas and Porpoises… is all not enough to be significant. It is statistical noise… less than a rounding error in the mining totals of New Eden.

(Aiko Danuja) #144

Well, let’s look at a specific region and see what the facts are.
In Lonetrek, miners lost 1.2 trillion in February 2019.
Meanwhile, 750 billion isk was mined.
That’s a net deficit.

If you are a manufacturer or importer to Lonetrek, destruction is isk in your pocket.

That same month, across the entire galaxy, fully 25% of everything produced (mined or manufactured) was destroyed. Without such destruction on a continual basis, the economy would suffer severe deflation.

You appear to be either exaggerating how much is mined, or underestimating how much is destroyed. A little of both perhaps.

You claim that the destruction of hundreds of Orcas is an insignificant sum. However, in fact, a hundred Orcas is roughly fifteen percent of Lonetrek’s total mining income. So the destruction of several hundred Orcas would indeed be a non-trivial event.

Does it even make sense to state that one of the game’s largest alliances is insignificant? CODE. is the largest and most powerful alliance in the game. How do you objectively reach such a contrary conclusion? Support us or don’t, but we certainly are out there, and many industrialists have written me their words of support (and more importantly, sent isk to encourage my continued activity). I think all of us in the ganking-industrial complex are very happy with our economic situation.

(Arrendis) #145

(( In-Character forum. Might want to edit that.))

Across the cluster in February, 25% of everything produced was destroyed [NOPE! Turns out you’re quoting erroneous numbers here. After looking at the official data…] 18.66% of everything produced was destroyed. If we include mining, it’s 14.63%. Are you trying to claim that these three kills are mining ships? Because my point is that the deaths of mining ships is a statistical anomaly. It’s nothing, in the big picture. The economy doesn’t even pay attention. Each of those three, and each of the three Avatars killed in that month, or the two Ragnaroks, or the Erebus, any one of those ships was worth a small mining fleet…

And I mean one of our mining fleets, where each ship is 10b ISK of Rorqual and drones.

CODE. is arguably the largest and most powerful alliance in New Eden? You say that to a Goon? Your little 959-pilot alliance isn’t as big as Goonwaffe. Warr drops bigger deuces than CODE. How insignificant is CODE. on the cluster’s economy? CODE.'s lifetime kill totals come in around 80t.

Delve, last year, more than doubled that. Just Delve. Just in mining, before it got converted to ships. 162t. Which became 441t in production.

You are insignificant. You are a drop of rain in a hurricane.

(Tyrel Toov) #146

And CODE is responsible for what, .00001% of that? I’m not going to be bothered to do the math, but I think a few more zeros might be in order there…

(Arrendis) #147

Oh, it gets better still…

In Lonetrek, in February of this year, everyone lost 1.26 trillion ISK. Not just miners. Sure, that’s a tiny little quibble, right? Well…

On Feb 28th, there were 393 ships and structures destroyed in Lonetrek. For purposes of being generous, I was going to count all of the haulers as ‘miners’. But, well, abyssal goodies and escalation loot ain’t miner drops. And besides, that was Init and P I R A T. So we’ll drop those 2 out. But just those 2!

Feb 28th is also a pretty high-destruction day, so we’ll call that a baseline and assume the month is 30 of those days (yes, I know Feb is 28 days, but we’re being generous).

So: of those 393 losses… 25 of them were miners/haulers.
They combined for a total of 362.66 million ISK.
If we take that as average (and if you want, I’m more than happy to actually put a scraper on it to compile all the month’s kill values for Lonetrek), that’s 10.879b in miner losses.

10.88b, out of 750 billion mined. That’s 1.45% operating costs in ‘mining ships blown up’. Incidentally, the vast majority of that 362.66m comes from a single, untanked Mackinaw.

So. 1.45%. At a generous estimate. Meanwhile, that same estimate of 10.879b for Feb?

That means that even if all of those miners are CODE… @Tyrel_Toov’s right. He needed more 0s. Because that’s 0.000000001% of the total destruction in Lonetrek in February.

Also, if you’re going to go trying to take credit for kills in Lonetrek, do it in a month that doesn’t include Burn Jita. Just a tip. :wink:

(Aiko Danuja) #148

Yep, that’s definitely a mining ship. Carebear class. Why do you ask?

Sorry, I don’t see the difference between 19% and 25%. No autism here. I merely glanced at the graph and estimated visually. It hardly changes the facts. The destruction of mining ships is the key to this economy. In the real world, we consume things. In EVE, we need to destroy them. Destruction is healthy.

As for Goonswarm, don’t you miners pay us rent? Oh, you didn’t know? Check with your supervisor, because you are already in CODE. Welcome friend, in the name of James! \o/ You probably need to drop fleet if you aren’t down with ganking. Anyways, let me know when you complete the null tutorial and we can get you into high sec.

(Tyrel Toov) #149

((In character fourm, stay in character please))

Now you’re just spouting BS to get Arrendis riled up.

Off-Topic Thread
(Aiko Danuja) #150

Arrenis is just a typical carebear miner… :rofl:

(Tyrel Toov) #151

Goonswarm has a mining and industry branch to replace the ships they get blown up, yes. But from my understanding, Arrendis is a member of Goons military administrative branch. Either way this has gone off topic and should be moved to the appropriate thread.

(Aiko Danuja) #152

Ah, but it’s spot on topic - do the ends justify the means? Is mining justifiable as a means of obtaining wealth? That is the quintessential ethical dilemma.

(Seraphea Vellastraan) #153

In order to make ISK, I kill Blood Raiders. I think the ends and means are both justified in this case.

(Diana Kim) #154

There are no ethical dilemma at all, since to mine or not to mine is a choice of a single actor which doesn’t affect others. There could be some conflicts as fights over “It’s mine roid, don’t mine it!” - and there could be some ethics involved and conflicts resolved, but in general it’s a single-pilot activity.

As for “justification” of a mining, it’s quite banal question. There could be personal dilemma to choose whether to mine or not. Clearly, mining is far from being the best isk-earning possibilities for capsule pilots, but it is somewhat relaxing and easy task, suitable for beginners. It’s a very relaxing activity, allowing pilots to read or even watch instruction holoreels, for example, how to fight with capsule ships, or do other studies without really paying attention on what’s going on in the space, making profit and producing materials for ship production.

Mining is one of the safest and easiest jobs for our pilots to learn to fly. Maybe some of mining ships are subpar - I’ve myself quickly looked through retriever, procurer and covetor, and I’d prefer for retriever to have defenses of a procurer to make life safer for the pilots, who want to get large ore hauls without paying attention. That would be really awesome for them!

Well, of course, it is semi-safe, as every capsuleer activities, since there are still guristas, blood raiders, serpentis and other pirates who love to shoot at these vessels. Even some of the asocial psycho capsule pilots dare to touch our little mining friends, but despite all these pirates and crazy pilots, it is still one of the safest and easiest honest works for starting pilots.

(Aiko Danuja) #155

Such blasphemy from the subcommander! Obey the CODE. or your mining ship will most certainly burn with the glory of James!

(Nuuri Naarian) #156

Code is a plague on this game, and an affront to the empire, and the light.

(Tyrel Toov) #157

Any way this ends, it ends well for the rest of us. 10/10 I approve.