Why bigger is worse in Eve? Scared to unleash is potential?

Hi everyone. I would like to know if I am the only one disappointed with big ships being more limited than small ones.

I like Eve, and the possibilities it offers. I like it so much it is the only game I pay money every month to play it.

But I do have one deception. My mind is struggling to understand why the bigger the ship and the bigger the weapons, more limited it feels. There is no fun in flying a big ship, except being able to destroy other big ships or structures, but that is unlikely to happen because there are many small ships gangs waiting in every system, and right now big vs small is bad, when it shouldn’t.

Why the only improvement in bigger weapons is the damage, while all the rest of the stats are worse?

Why the only gain in big ships is shield, armor and and hull while all the rest of the stats are worse?

Right now, Eve is about using the right type of ship and weapon against the right type of enemy, which sounds good, but it has a big limitation. And leaving aside the different ammunition type (which is good), basically there are 2 approaches:

  1. choosing small vs small, medium vs medium, and big vs big
  2. form a fleet and go many vs one, or many vs many.
  3. in very rare occasions u can bring big vs medium, but it will normally slow down the fleet and makes it a bad decision (which should not be this way)

And about Many vs Many fights, they usually end up in under 10 minutes, no matter how many are involved, and with no real fight, only decided by the numbers. There is no possible strategy, because of damage application being so limited. So where is the fun in no fight?

Can anyone see the limitations at this point? Big ships are only used against big targets. Small ships are used for mostly everything.

Lets go point by point:

1. Worse targeting in big ships?? How can that be possible? Its bigger, so it has more space, so it has more antennas. How can a small ship target faster than a bigger ship?? Is unreal !! The big ship can dedicate more space to accommodate better tracking and targeting.

2. Big ships are all fat and lazy ?? I understand that smaller ship are more agile, accelerate faster, but it doesn’t mean all big ships should be fat, and lazy. Big ships can accommodate more engine, and more thrust than smaller ships, which means that bigger ships should be able to reach higher speeds than smaller ships. A smaller ship should not be able to outrun a bigger ship in straight line, of course being more agile, the smaller ship can jump to a safe spot. Big shouldn’t mean less top speed, nor longer warp out timings.

3. Big ship can be trapped by 1 small ship ?? Really? even if the small ship manages to disrupt / scramble, how can it have the power or the mass to stop a bigger ship? So a 7M isk can ruin the life of a 1B isk ship. Is so irrational. The big ship favored by the difference in mass and engine power should drag the small ship with it, even into warp. Small ships should not be so eager to tackle a big ship, knowing it will be impossible to get hit, and simply wait for reinforcements. It is not real. Maybe u bring 30 ship of 7M value to tackle a 1B ship and u can stop that big ship from warping away. Is like a monkey trying to stop a elephant. In Eve even the most untalented monkey will make the elephant life miserable.

4. Bigger weapons are worse vs small ship ?? Why in Eve missile explosions expand slower the bigger the missile is? The bigger the warhead, the slower its explosion is? It is so hard to understand that, and is so so disappointing. And for the turrets, why a big turret looses tracking, some maybe could be that way, but not all. A mechanized turret should not necessarily be slower just because is bigger, it could even be faster at tracking than smaller ones. But in Eve all turrets seem to be moved by a fat lazy cow, or is impossible to understand why bigger loose tracking.

So, my point. One player can not get in his big ship and go hunt 10-20-30 smaller ships by his own. Eve seems so bounded to 1 vs 1, or Many vs 1, or Many vs Many, but never 1 vs Many. And this makes Eve terribly limited, in terms of strategies, and game play.

Ofc one can get in a dread and hold a fight against 60-100 players without loosing. But it will never be a real fight. Because the dread can only destroy some of the bigger ships, but will be wasting ammunition against smaller ones. And no matter what u do is very unlikely to get away from that without requesting a form up, to destroy those small ships that should never stand a chance.

I live in null sec and i see a gank every 5-10 minutes. We form up and try get em. We sometimes win and sometimes loose. I am not against ganking, is the fun action part of Eve.

I simply feel that big ships and weapons are punished, almost like someone is afraid of unleashing is potential.

So, i repeat my disappointing question:

Should bigger be worse against smaller?

If a change is made, and bigger can take a stand against smaller:

Will this make it harder for new players? New players start in high sec, so not at all. It will only mean that small ships will stop being a pain in the ass for bigger ships.

Will this enforce rich players? Only if there would be only one person or one group holding all the isk in Eve.

Would this destabilize the game play? Ofc it will. The hole concept of having to pick the correct weapon against the correct target LIMITATION will disappear. But big fights will be a lot less needed, and small engagements across multiple locations can be a real strategy.

Eve is a multiplayer environment, but a player should be able to choose is ways to interact with the rest. And in Eve I feel forced to form groups to gank smaller groups, and solo players. And as a solo player I can’t take big fights, with bigger ships, simply because i target slower, my turrets will miss smaller targets, my missiles will do less damage, so is harder to kill smaller ships, which is totally different in real life.

Wars in Eve don’t follow a rational reasoning, they tend to be in large groups, and groups that quickly escalate to bigger and bigger, because of the limitations that big ships have. In real world, fights are scattered around many locations, in smaller groups, because one person can do a lot of damage to big groups. This will never happen in actual Eve, and only one reasoning is possible: if many small, easy to replace ships, can melt dreads, with very little loses, FCs will always call for high numbers. Instead, if 1 dread could take a fight against small ships, things wouldn’t escalate in high numbers, but in the quality of it. And players only able to fly small ships would take other roles.

Eve will grow up in numbers (unless a more close to logic game appears and takes Eve place) and so will the wars get bigger, and no server will be able to escalate fast enough to accommodate current fight conditions, simply because big cant take small.


Opinions, ideas and straight yes / no answers are appreciated. Not looking for lessons or advice in this topic.
Please don’t spam the topic writing about how good you are hunting solo, or how good you and your mates are at ganking others. Nobody cares about ego.
Remember the question:
Should bigger be worse in Eve?
Should bigger ships have worse tracking, targeting, top speed?
Should bigger weapons be progressively worse against smaller targets, when all logic says is has no sense?

hello there ,
I think its better you moove this post undr NEW Citizens Q&A … because there is lot of wrong informations there … considering the long post you have written i sincerely believe that you are a new player and you are not trolling… Else NO WAYY!

Battleship being trapped by a frigate is stupid, good point.

Couple of examples :blush:
this is not True … this is only true in your context i think you are in one of bull Block corps and flying doctring ships and F! monkey … Stagnant game play booring as ■■■■ … This what you know is not the only PVP exist in EVE online… and doesnt provide you enough data to make that kind of broad generalisations …

Please learn these terms : Signature Radius. Signature Resolution … If they haven’t teach you those 2 up to now LEAVE THAT CORP!

They do accommodate bigger size prop modules that none of the frigs can accommodate … you expect a whale fly like a mosquito … this is IRRATIONAL. And all your argument around Biggers ships maneuverability… there is no BATTLE ships in the sea that can move as fast and agile as a speed boat …

Please learn how the warp disruptors and warp scramblers function and their mechanics … tackle modules’ strengths has nothing to do with opponents’ ships mass! its about the signal strength can scramble and prevent the opponent ships systems create warp tunnels … please read "Warp Scramble strength " as a term and how it function

this is where you need to learn the missile /turret damage mechanics … you are totally up in the air about those in-game mechanics. When you get a grip and read them up… then come back here and read all you write here…

All your assumptions are coming out of your extremely limited in-game content experience and understanding about game mechanics im so sory … i would really love to help you…

if you have time you are more welcome to contact me ingame…

Because mending all those misconceptions of yours takes a very long time. Moreover most players doesn’t want to give up those ideas and misinformation they learn first and proud of it … . and that’s also basic reason why we prefer 1-day old players as protege … Because they don’t have any misleading… and misjudgements …

wherever you are in EVE just RUUUN ! if you are still rookie may be ok… … but if you are in-game longer time… just get off

how long you have been playing in this game ??? ITs very common new player attitude that they RUSHH INTO bigeer ships hoping that they will be stronger in them … risk averse… SOOO hunger to seek for some safety and some confidance … thats the biggest mistake many new pilots fall for

Bigger is NOT AWAYS better… and smaller is NOT ALWAYS better either… everything is situational.

  1. Learn the mechanics
  2. Join somewhere you can be more than F1 monkey and can teach you PvP mechanics groundly… gain some experience

Then we talk again

@bluelysian you where waiting for a post to expose your ego and you completely forgot this post is not about how great you are.
This is not a post for learning, so its not about who knows more, is simply a Yes or No - Agree or Disagree. I truly couldn’t care less about how good you are, because is simply not about me, or you, or asking to be teached.

Please keep this clean and tidy so maybe people can say if they agree or not, without having to rewrite Eve from top to bottom. There are many posts for learning and teaching, but this is not the one.

Ego can prevent us from continuing to learn and improve by making us believe we don’t need to. Learning a technical or soft skill, in our industry or not, allows us to continue to evolve. You can’t get better if you think you are the best. Learning something new is hard, humbling, and puts our ego in check.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03W9hTdgbzEATy-xWhW43iinouFfg%3A1611931096834&ei=2B0UYJHBMu71qwHHpYX4Dg&q=ego+prevents+learning+&oq=ego+prevents+learning+&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIECCMQJzIGCAAQFhAeUPLAAljPyQJgj9ACaABwAHgAgAFWiAG2B5IBAjEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiRjbejr8HuAhXu-ioKHcdSAe8Q4dUDCA0&uact=5

I haven’t claim that im really good neither wrote something like that … but thanks for compliment !

Also just a friendly sugestion… ITs really bad idea to EGO CHECK a over 20 years experienced psychologist…Not may be in EVE but that is something I am damn good at it in RL … officially …

keeep screaming that you dont want to learn! read all those articles… and self check your last post … its dripping EGO

Post of yours FULL OF mis-information and lack of understanding. and this is not something i made up… its seeded in game mechanics and doesnt work the way in your head actually. You made up some non -existent mechanics and applying and implying these like really exist in EVE…

and you don’t accept any input and corrections either … What is this attitude? do you think its healthy?

Bigger isn’t better and neither is smaller better.

It’s all situationally better, as it should be.

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He dont want to learn or understand … sadly …

I don’t agree with you.

This thread reads as ‘Why doesn’t my big expensive ship crush those frigates everywhere?

Big ships have their benefits: they can dish out a lot of damage and survive a lot of damage. If you want to fight one vs many, or want a powerful ship to stay alive in PvE while killing a lot of pirates, a big ship is perfect.

Likewise, small ships have their benefits. More agile and quicker than big ships, they can slip in places where the bigger ships cannot go, and stay under the large oversized guns of the bigger ships to stay alive. The smaller ship with small guns won’t be able to easily take down the big ship by itself, but a fleet of those frigates can easily take a battleship or bigger.

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You’re wrong on 95% of what you’re saying.
There’s been years of data and experience to understand the balancing of battleships and capitals, and making them so strong against small targets overall makes them oppressive and crushes variation in useful ships.

The only exceptions I’d make is adjustments to T2 battleships improving their ability to fight smaller targets would give some very niche ships more viability.

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Bigger is better, just not to big vs to small :stuck_out_tongue:

standard fit. 17.5B is just offer for the cap.

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Thank you @Gerard_Amatin, @Katya_Itzimaru and you are evil

Indeed its what I am talking about. Overpowering ? maybe. Ofc it would give a big bonus to target faster, and being able to actually hit. It would take a dread to kill a dread? Just like now. ¿But is it fair to simply not be able to destroy frigates and cruisers with a dread? I can survive 30 bombers but i cant destroy a frigate? Is like whyyyyy…

Balancing and making game enjoyable for all. Indeed, it is above me.

And you are evil you totally hit the center. Thank you.

Big ships can kill small targets, but they need to specialise. When big ships use big guns to hit big targets, their damage won’t apply to small ships.

If the big ship instead fits small weapons, it can hit the small ships much more easily and kill them. The downside is that the big ship then has trouble killing other big ships with his small guns.

This game is about making choices. A battleship made to kill frigates is a very scary opponent for frigates, but if it encounters another battleship it will be at a disadvantage.

And that is one of the base principles of EVE: there is no ship that can do it all.

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Lussy is always a joy to watch.

@Gerard_Amatin thank you for participating. So I understand you totally agree on how Eve gunnery targeting and missiles damage applies now?

I never said a ship should do everything. I am just saying I don’t agree how tracking and damage, and targeting works.

Some ships like capitals can’t specialize in hitting frigates, you can only try and make it better, but it will always need to waste some cycles in killing small, which is exactly the point in this topic: why shouldn’t I be able to destroy all size of ships with same efficiency, while choosing the right ammo type? As a idea, you could give smaller ships even more acceleration, so they could get away faster, to compensate the damage and targeting.

Is true, but it is not a real choice if you are forced to make one. Is like having to choose between sacrificing your right arm or the left one. Why do you even have to make that choice?

So again you are forced to choose, so you need to go with a fleet. Because in Eve you are very likely to encounter all kind of ships.

Conclusion: the vast possibilities of choices that Eve offers, is what makes this game so good, but some choices are forcing you to a limited set of plays.

It’s not perfect, but the way it works now (big guns deal more damage but have trouble hitting smaller faster targets) is fair.

By the way, you say this:

and then this:

Isn’t that contradicting each other? You don’t say a ship should do everything, yet you do want guns to hit everything well.

Choices. You need to optimise your fit for whatever you’re going to face. And if you think you’ll face both small ships and large ones, try two weapon systems. Bring large guns and small drones, or small guns and large torpedoes or whatever you can think of. Choices.

Eh… I don’t agree. If you’re not forced to make a choice, is it really a choice? Wouldn’t you just do it all if you could, shoot both the large and the small targets? That’s why you need to make choices when fitting your ship: try to visualise the scenario where your ship is going to be used, then optimise.

Don’t bring sacrificing arms into this, as that’s just silly.

Indeed, you’re limited to whatever your ship is intended for. Then if you want to do something else, dock up, swap ships, do that other thing.

There is no ship that does it all.

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I have moved this to the new citizen section

Thanks

ISD Bahamut

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^^This.

Anyway, I think that the overall balance of Eve is nothing short of brilliant. First, Eve is a PvP centric game that doesn’t have designated PvP areas, arenas, matchmaking, or anything like that. Anyone can attack anyone else at any time. Second, it has a really slow progression system. So, it’s not like you can quickly grind up to the level cap in 6 months or something. Thus, Eve needs something to make these mechanics work together. Otherwise, the vets would be brutally oppressive to newbros, and we’d hardly get any new blood into the game.

So, one of the biggest things that makes this work is that there isn’t a straightforward progression system in terms of skills and isk costs. Bigger and more expensive ships tend to improve along some dimensions, but not all dimensions. Which means that you don’t have to be a 10 year veteran in order to be competitive. Winning fights is no longer a case of just flying the biggest, baddest, and most expensive ship you can fly, but picking the right tool for the job. This is absolutely brilliant game design, and I strongly assert that it is one of the things that makes Eve special.

So, not only no, but hell no. I believe that what you want would straight up ruin Eve.

Welp, I guess I’ll leave it at that.

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