Why bigger is worse in Eve? Scared to unleash is potential?

New Citizens Q&A
21

That listing of small vs large ships is very useful and most of it makes sense outside EVE as well. I come from elite dangerous where it’s fairly normal that small focussed ships take out large lumbering targets that just can’t get their guns to bear on the target unless they specifically built their ship for it.

And even in real life: bigger guns aren’t always better, if that were the case every soldier would run around with a 50 cal long range sniper, being the biggest personal weapon. Which is very obviously not the case because they wouldn’t work in smaller scenarios. Soldiers also need AR15, MP5 or anything similar.

JUST because a weapon is bigger doesn’t mean it’s better in all situations. It’s a silly idea, asking for it is equally silly and that doesn’t even take into account the whole concept of needing to balance a game.

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22

Think about RL examples: Tank vs motorcycle. Battleship vs plane squadron. Human vs Corona.
Bigger is better? Matter of the point of view.

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If big ships could move as fast as and hit small targets as easy as small ships with more damage and tank what do you think would be the game reality?

You really think you would be fighting a bunch of people in small ships that you could easily beat 1vs30?

No. The outcome of what you want would either
A) all people fly big ships because why would you ever fly something smaller and guarantee to be blapped off the field by any big ship that comes.

B) no small ship or group of them would ever engage bigger ships. They know they would lose so they would simply run away or reship into bigger ships.

What you want is simply bad game design. It won’t be implemented because it leads to boring stale combat where everyone will simply choose one ship type above all others all the time.

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24

Well, there is one thing in which bigger is always better.

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I see what the author is trying to point out, i really do. And he’s right BUT EVE Online would NOT be levelled as it is now, it’d be worse with people paying for true power in the game.

Right now, you cannot really buy to win. It’s buy to improve just like the real world so it’s an appreciation being overlooked in my opinion. Even the skill points are somewhat realistic if you compare you can contract a bigger company with more tools to develop something bigger better and/or faster, you know? There’s a fine line for everything.

If they took all the authors suggestions which i’m sure they’ve come across over the years, they would have a bigger/serious problem with game perception. With that said, the authors point is a valid one, and i think it should be better balanced. Large ships HAVE to have a bigger advantage than just more modules.

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I get what the op is trying say, look at just about any other space ship game with large ships such as cruisers and battleships. These ship typically have very large main guns used to engage other large ships but they are also covered in smaller weapons and point defense systems to protect them from much smaller threats. Heck, just look real naval vessels from the last century to modern times, they have all kinds of different weapons to attack and defend from all types of threats.

It’s hard to believe that in the highly advanced universe of Eve, battleships don’t have smaller point defense batteries and turrets all over their hull in additions to the main guns.

All that being said, it would absolutely ruin the balance of the game. I just wish their was some explanation lore wise why this isn’t the case as it is extremely unrealistic.

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@Shipwreck_Jones thank you so much for that self explaining picture and the info you gave to this post.

@Sarah_Olson you read my mind. Ofc I wouldn’t want to ruin “balance”. We all must enjoy game.

This will result in wars being more expensive. And maybe because of the cost of it, we wouldn’t see fights with 6.000+ people which only causes tidi, lags, and disconnects, which is teribly boring and definetly not good for players. Or the fight could be in several systems because you don’t need to cover your capitals with all kind of small ships

Whats the difference in encountering a bigger ship you cant fight, or encountering a gate camp? The difference will be that one small frigate or destroyer will not laugh at a dread, making it easy target for the rest. There are many ways to destroy a dread, but getting trapped by one frigate should not be one.

And how current pvp fights work now? usually 5 to 10 people form up in frigates or destroyers and go system to system searching for lonely ships. As soon as they see another fleet they run away. No need to see a big ship in grid, any 1 ship and is disengage. So is that fun? Ofc for the attackers!! Is it easy to put together that kind of fleet? Terribly easy, you don’t need any focus, zero skill, just jump, jump, jump, target, fire, destroy, jump and repeat. Is it easy to defend? NO, because the 30 secs is needed to put together 5-10 people to defend, the attackers will have jumped away. So you stay and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, while attackers having fun in another system with other lonely ships. (this is just a generalized example, I can already see next answer saying: no, its not like that, you can do things…)

So ofc I am having fun with easy kills, and I can simply keep doing it. Don’t know why I bother writing a post when I could keep making easy isk, while same time I get even more isk because the one I killed has to rebuy and fit the lost ship. But should it be like that? Many say Eve is balanced, but the way is balanced, is easy for the ones playing in groups while sadly if you want to play solo, there is a limit to the things one can do. And sadly attacking is easy, while defending needs a lot more effort and coordination. The speed of the ships, is so high that by the time you ask for help, and the first mate warps to you, you already dead, and attackers gone.

I do appreciate that in Eve one cant buy a certain win. Games that allow people to easy win using a credit card, are garbage. Eve has just enough elements to self balance it self, and making big ships more powerfull should only make them more expensive.

So my humble conclusion: Eve is not balanced, since attacking is so terribly easy, and defending is so terribly boring, and requires at least 3 times more people to defend. Why do u think there is a cap for damage to structures? Because it is not balanced. You could destroy any structure so fast, and simply get away, that they had to put a cap, so defenders could actually have a chance on defending. So all that said, I don’t thing it would be such big unbalance if 3 details would get closer to reality: targeting speed, missile damage appliance and turret tracking.

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@Beast_of_Revelations deserves to see this.

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Actually what your seeing isn’t an attackers advantage it’s better attackers coordination. As a defender you can see them in local, you can see them on dscan, you can pve aligned, have limitless citadels anchored to hide and defend yourself in. With all the Intel large groups have it’s easy to come in with a huge blob and steamroll the attackers.

Because the defenders have a huge advantage on every count as attackers we have to be quicker, get in, get the kill and get out. The issue with defending isn’t because the defenders don’t have plenty of tools at their disposal it’s that they either don’t bother using them or don’t coordinate as well as the attackers. Notice you want a solo big ship to always win vs a group of coordinated small ships. Why should you get to be even more lazy and on top of all the tools you already have. If you’re as coordinated as the attackers you would bait them, corner them, counter drop them etc. You can pve in groups. You even get jump bridges to help in those efforts if you have sov. But defending yourself might not let you min/max and have max isk/hr. You say that it’s so easy to put together a fleet to attack. But you want it easier for yourself. You are so greedy you want to be able to pve solo and be able to defeat a whole fleet without any effort at all.

You talk about gate camps. As a dirty gate camper countless people love to message me about how I’m a bad pvper and should roam like a real man. Why bother roaming when tons of juicy targets just come to us? And it gets real sad when you kill someone and then not a few minutes later their corp mate comes right to us and dies as well. Is that imbalance? No. Because they know we are there and can either avoid or bring something to take us out. The first guy could have seen the kill board and known we are there as well. They almost always have superior numbers if they want to come back.

And you say “but if you see numbers you will run”. While that may be true that we would either up ship to meet the challenge or run if we have no way to win, the camp buster can bait us. Why does the bait not work you say? Because the bait isn’t willing to risk losing their ship to get the party started. But say we do run. Then isn’t your goal met of getting through the camp? Imagine that… Getting together with other people just like the attackers do and miraculously you can also win.

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@Algathas you are right on this one:

But this one is too much:

I don’t want short / long ranges disappear, damage types will still be there. Maybe if is done what I request, I would be able to target faster, and apply damage better (so will the attackers) but that will only mean that you will have to call a few more small ships to destroy a big one

It would be strange in Eve to be so lucky and only find in my path small targets. Also , if by coordinated attackers you mean sending 1 scout ahead to check, that’s nothing compared to coordinate a defense against attackers with small ships, having to camp all gates, scout for, wait for 1 to warp to you, follow warp, u already gone, scan more, u already gone, repeat 7 times, just to see attackers filament out.

Small ships are a pain in the ass right now. Are cheap, fast, have top acceleration and top speed, and target faster. Small ships offer a lot more for a daily routine in Eve than bigger ones.

Important to add, I am not complaining about anything but 1 thing, I make good isk with current game mechanic. I get kills and there are some moments of fun. My only complain is that I feel forced to do it in fleets. The idea of going rogue like a crazy pirate is not a thing in Eve. Ofc i can do some sites, but when it comes to pvp is 1 vs 2 or 3. The reward for training for a battleship or a dread and the isk needed to fit one, is not worth it. How many times a month do I get to take my dread to a pvp fight? Once a month?
So, do I hate small ships? No, I play in a frigate, destroyer or cruiser 99% of the time. Are small ships balanced? No, they have many illogical advantages against bigger ships.

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It is a thing… its just you dont know how to and you clearly stated that dont want to learn how to… souds like you just want to undock with your big ship… quick target and be able to track all small ships and kill them …

I truly hope that you are a troll… and you realy dont believe all these stuff as new player but just trolling vets here… and using their well intentions and energy to explain things to you.

If not that… whats the point try to explain something to someone just stick onto what he wants but doesnt want to accept and hear or learn any REASONINGS …??? Every experienced pilot here up to now they explain … seem like all wasted … says your last message…

If you know only to be F1 monkey doesnt mean all rest of new eden so … its just you who doesnt know any other way, and you dont want to learn anything… “ Start with frigates… learn properely … fittings mechanics tactics piloting skills… Show some respect to “KNOWLEGE “

Face this … make your decision … and moove forward in your gameplay

If you were very very new and still rooki i would definately use a different language here… but in this stage situation requires some some straight input and honesty

32

We should rename this section of the forums: New Citizen Q&A including “I want a change of the rules”
I don’t see any question to answer in this thread, only complaining about rules and mechanics. We can’t help at all.

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We tried to help. But now i can see his intention was either trolling and stealing vets time …or just simply he hopelessly expecting to find some support for his unrealistic assumptions and so far he couldnt get this from any experienced player…

But our answers may be gives some ideas to more new players …

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@bluelysian you made wrong assumptions since your first reply to my post. You got it wrong when I said: this is not a post for teaching. And you changed it to: I don’t want to learn.
You say you have profession in real world, but you rushed into making assumptions, instead of patiently reading and trying out my point of view. I can not understand why you trow at me your ideas by overstepping and discarting mine. I may be wrong, I may not think like you, I may want something that’s totally impossible. That doesn’t mean I am some kind of ignorant retard.

I am simply making a statement that some things in Eve are not following a real world logic, trying to see if others think the same. It is a complex mater, so the word “simply” maybe is not appropriate, but don’t get mad if in this post I am not looking to be teached.

@Boldly_Gone is it so wrong to ask for a change of rules? Am I taking something from you? Why do you feel I need your help? Or better, whats so wrong for not wanting your help? If you patiently read my post, I am only requesting to know if you agree or not.

There is a time and place for everything, unfortunately internet is a place where many simply let their ego go wild, because the other person is not in front to have to deal with the reactions. We all feel we have something to teach, we all feel we are doing it better, we all feel we should “help”, and as a result if its not my idea is not valid, so for some is hard to even answer a simple question: do you agree with my opinion that a few things in Eve don’t follow real world logic?

It takes me several hours to answer one message, just because I read again and again and again what the other person wrote me, and I try not to write on the first impulse I get on the first reading, especially when that person thinks the opposite of me.

Since this last posts no real progression was made, I take a moment to thank all who have shared very useful information: @Shipwreck_Jones, @Sarah_Olson, @Algathas, @LordVyse, @Xanthellus, @Gerard_Amatin, @Katya_Itzimaru

I am presuming that the reason that Eve as a great game that is, with such a vast world and so much to offer, after 17 years only has 30.000 regular players, is because many found my same limitations. Solo playing in Eve is bound to:

  1. doing sites and lower lvl missions. You can do higher but u need intel, or most likely you will get into a gate camp, or dropped upon
  2. go industrialist & marketeer, thats me, but definitely is not for the ones that are looking for action and a more direct interaction with other people.
  3. fight in arena, which in the free for all, is basically getting lucky to not be targeted first. Ofc some skills help, but if all 3 have targeted you, there is little you can do.

Maybe Eve is not supposed to give 1 player the strength to make a difference in pvp fights. One can be the owner of all the assets of a corporation of several thousands players, and can sell them to who ever he wants, doing massive damage to many players, but will never be able to take a fight 1 vs 10 or 1 vs 100 with fair chances on winning??? One can screw thousands with abusive prices, but is limited in 1 vs many fights?

Sincerely I think every strategy is valid, no matter how shity it is, but I do believe that the limitations in 1 vs Many pvp fights are illogical.

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You cannot persue your case without knowledge and understanding. And up to now… all over your answers to other vets… you celarly showed that you dont want to learn… and keep it on and on and on… your handling and answers doesnt leave any need for assumptions… and everbody aware abot that.

The way you think is irrelevant as long as you dont have basic understanding and knowledge and keep set up totally irrelasitic evaluations which doesnt pan on the reality of game mechanichs.

First and most imporatnt aspect of solo PVP is strong understanding about game mechanics … And there is pilots who capable to do that…

Just not in your range. Stop trolling. And stop crying over something you have no grab in any context… stop… go out and begin to learn …

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To be agree or disagree there should be something relevant … not something totally out of game reality and facts and made-up stuff… you madeup stuff which doesn’t even suitable in-game mechanics and you asking the things you made up in your head people agree or disagree…

what is this?

37

Not true.

I remeber a fight where my fleet (we were flying what I think was about 30 cheap Atron frigates) encountered a ratting Dominix battleship in null at a gate.

We engaged, but it probably was no ratting Domi as it was completely prepared to fight us off and killed most of us one by one until our survivors retreated. It was a great fight!

He probably heard about the incoming Atron fleet in intel and decided to put his anti-frigate fit battleship right on the gate to bait us. And he succeeded.

He brought the right tool for a one vs many fight. But if he had encountered something much bigger it may not have gone so well for him.

What you’re asking for is that the big ships can do this at all times, whether they fight big or small targets. And that’s a bad idea for many reasons mentioned already in this thread.

You can fight one vs many if you know what you’re up against.

You can’t just expect big ships to always easily kill small targets and big targets. You need to specialise to have an advantage, as a generalised fit that can do everything will always be worse than using a specialised tool for every occasion.

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Having to be specialized kind of forces us to play in groups, because one can only take the role is specialized in.

I totally appreciate your post, so I will just keep this phrase:

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What it really forces you to do is have proper Intel, either gathered yourself or with help. Using that Intel you then pick the proper fit/ship for what is coming.

For example I have ships of all sizes and configurations (even some crazy specialized ones) set up in many stations around where I live. I go about my EVE time in the standard ship for whatever I’m doing but then if either I myself or my alliance Intel gives info about incoming targets I will reship accordingly.

Important Intel is not only what they are in but who they are as that can determine their behavior. After a while you see the same people over again and learn their general tactics and playing style. You then form tactics based on the foe’s ships and their possible tactical weakness.

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FYI:

  • Solo players are not limited to that extremely short list of stuff. And there are a ton of tutorial videos and articles telling players how they can engage in that content.
  • 1 Player can make a difference in PvP fights. I mean, FC’s are probably the best example, but there are a ton of people in other roles that are constantly making meaningful contributions.
  • 1 Player can take on multiple players. And there are videos across multiple channels of things like (1) Sutonia using on-grid separation to split gangs up and get kills, (2) dudes in dreads taking on medium sized gangs, and (3) multiboxers like Olmeca Gold using one man fleets to take on what would otherwise be impossible odds.

Additionally:

  • While I think individuals and groups should be able to punch up against larger groups, I don’t think people should be able to win fights merely because they’re flying capital sized trump cards. Skill is still the single biggest factor for determining outcomes, and I’d like to keep it that way.
  • I guarantee that you will have a lot more success if you stop petitioning for game breaking balance changes, and focus your efforts on figuring out how to use the existing mechanics to your advantage. Honestly, this is the biggest thing holding you back. You already possess an amazing set of tools. Figure out how to use them.
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