If bigger ships should have nerfed application to smaller ships

Then smaller ships should have some kind of nerfed… application, dps, whatever… to bigger ships. Maybe anything less than a threshold level of dps or alpha lacks the ‘punch through’ to be able to effectively damage the ship, thus the damage is attenuated.


Did a Dev post something about a change you’re suggesting?

You know, a source would be nice.

In theory this is already reflected in larger ships tanking ability. However cap runs out too fast. I’d love to see large ships have much bigger cap pools. Even if they dont charge any faster. So they will be unstable but still able to fight for a long time.

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I’m responding to all the anti big ship folks forever spouting off on these forums, and on the Reddit forums. Years ago it was hate against battleships. Nowadays, it’s hate against capships. “Capships shouldn’t even be able to target smaller ships.” “Carriers shouldn’t be anti-subcap.” Etc. etc. etc.

Here’s just something I read today, but I see it every day on all forums:

I agree. I think weapons need a penetration stat. We’ve lost our engines. Track destroyed. We’re on fire. We just dinged him.

Sounds like sub-sys targeting, I wonder if Dev will ever get around to doing that.

Edit: Maybe add it to Capitals first.

I’m not necessarily opposed to subsystem targeting, but I was simply referring to a generic ‘penetration’ mechanic. Think of a mosquito biting you. It can’t even penetrate the skin layer. Sure, you get an itchy bump, but that’s about it. Meanwhile, a bullet or a knife will go straight through you.

Doesn’t have to be a penetration mechanic though. I just figured it wouldn’t make sense to nerf tracking of smaller ships against bigger ships, because, well, that makes no sense. So just something that makes sense, whether it’s a penetration mechanic, or something else.

The carrier hate is because carriers are utterly op compared to small ships. 1 carrier is worth 10 small ships which goes against the idea of eve.

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A carrier should be OP against a smaller ship, just like an elephant should be OP against a mouse.

Don’t know what you are going on about with the ‘goes against the idea of Eve’ nonsense.


That bigger is not better.
That one player is not worth dramatically more than another.

Elephants are in fact not OP vs Mice. Animals have niches. And in that niche they are the superior choice.


Neither is smaller.

Of course there are players worth dramatically more than others, whether we are talking about ISK, skill points, piloting skill, PvP skill, industrial skill, etc.

I agree and have argued this in the past. Unfortunately, people who hate big ships don’t agree.
They think they agree, as you do, and they say they agree, as you do, but they don’t. For instance I have said that a smaller ship is far superior to a larger ship in terms of ISK you are risking, time and skilling required to get into it, etc. But the other side doesn’t listen. I have said that a smaller ship is faster and can get around easier and more quickly, and go into areas prohibited to larger ships, like highsec, low mass wormholes, etc. But the other side doesn’t listen. Smaller ships might be better at tackling, at mining, at doing a whole host of things. But the other side ignores all of this, because the other side doesn’t care about these niches you speak of. No, the other side only cares about the niche of two ships squaring off and blasting their guns at each other until one ship kills the other. And in that particular niche, they want the smaller ship to win, or at the very least not lose, which is outrageous. You yourself even complained about this, when you said carriers were OP against smaller ships.

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Name me a single sub cap that can solo a carrier with the recent ECM changes. I’m very curious to know what kind of fits you are imagining can happen.
Big ships certainly have their place, carriers can project DPS a long way, but if a carrier is removing the whole point of smaller ships on any battlefield they can reach, then there is a serious issue.

I didn’t say that a single subcap could solo a carrier. Perhaps one can, perhaps one can’t. But I didn’t say either way. What I said was, that’s what people on ‘your side’ want - for a subcap to be able to solo a carrier.

If a carrier isn’t fit for PvP (and maybe even if it is), I have little doubt that some subcap, or maybe two, could do it. One frigate could tackle, another frigate could defang, then they both shoot with their pea shooters until the carrier is dead. But I’ll let some expert chime in here. I do know that every ratting carrier pilot I know lives in mortal terror of a neutral subcap popping up in local, and they instantly warp away. They could care less if a neutral capital pops up in local. But they’ll run in terror from a neutral frigate or cruiser.

You are the one who brought up niches. And, as I knew it would be, you don’t care about the niches. You just care about small ships being able to kill big ships. You just want ‘smaller is better.’

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Nice building of a strawman to argue against when I’ve said nothing of the sort.
I mean, I could do the same and say obviously you are wanting a carrier to be able to kill 100 subcaps.
The reality is capitals already have the tank & EHP to reflect the ‘reduced application’ of a frigate against them.
EHP being 10 times bigger or frigates doing 10 times less damage is the same when it comes to frigate vs capitals.

If we reduce small ship application vs capitals then capital EHP & rep/s also has to drop by a comparable amount, which means capital vs capital kills each other much faster. Now this isn’t necessarily a bad thing mind you, capitals could possibly do to die faster… but this then creates massive balance issues with things like titan doomsdays also. Where we go back to 1 doomsday = a dead capital, 3 or 4 = a dead titan.
Otherwise you are giving capitals a massive buff vs anything sub cap, when we already have capitals online, and capitals just got a massive buff with capital modules being added in a lot of categories and T2 weapons.

Nope, HP and reduced application are two different things, and capitals don’t have some already baked-in ‘extra HP’ to account for reduced application of subcaps against caps. Their bigger HP is to account for the fact that they are capital ships. Just as you expect a Star Destroyer in Star Wars to have more HP than the Millennium Falcon, and just as you expect the Death Star to have even more, so does a capship have more HP than a subcap. Most everybody understands this concept, except people in Eve who hate big ships because they just want to fly small ships, and want the entire game to cater to their playstyle.

I have a friend who drives 18-wheelers (semis, tractor trailers, whatever you want to call them). He just had a head-on collision with some guy who was driving down the wrong side of the road. I have video of the entire thing, the crash scene, etc. The two occupants of the car are dead, and their car looks like a crushed aluminum can. It’s totally unrecognizable. My friend’s truck, on the other hand, totally looks like a truck. Oh, it isn’t driveable - the front axle is broken, the engine was damaged, etc. But it looks like a truck. My friend maybe got a scratch. Anyway, 18-wheelers have more HP than cars. Everybody understands this.

But there’s bigger. I also have video of an 18-wheeler getting hit by a train at full speed. The 18-wheeler was chucked into the air quite a ways, and looked pretty much like a crumpled aluminum can upon landing. The train didn’t even look like it lost a single MPH, nor did it look like it had a scratch. It just kept going as if it didn’t know it hit anything. Here, the train was the capship, and the 18-wheeler was the subcap.

Anyway, if ‘bigger shouldn’t be better,’ then ‘smaller shouldn’t be better’ either, and again I say that if big ships have reduced application against small ships, then small ships should have reduced application against big ships.

But in starwars, lasers do the same damage regardless of ship size. Larger ships just have more HP to take those hits.
There is no reduced application.

And EHP effectively simulate reduced application vs larger targets.
As I said above, 10 * the EHP or 10% of the damage, it means the same in the end when referring to a specific class vs a specific class.

Right. But also in Star Wars, bigger ships don’t have nerfed application against smaller ships. So I’m saying, either remove bigger ships nerfed application against smaller ships in Eve, or nerf smaller ship application against bigger ships. Because after all, if ‘bigger shouldn’t be better,’ then ‘smaller shouldn’t be better’ either.

Uh, yes they do, it’s called tracking, and star wars has it.
Turret weapons in EVE don’t (well didn’t) magically do less damage because a target was small, they did ‘less damage’ because of targetting and tracking difficulties. If you land a full shot from an XL gun on a frigate, it takes the full damage of the shot.
There is no magical “Frigates take 10% damage from this class of weapons”, except if we get into missiles, and then understanding how missiles work in most cases it makes sense they take less because a lot of the weapon is wasted on empty space.

I know how tracking works - you don’t need to lecture me about it.

Then why are you going on about how small ships get ‘reduced application’ when they don’t actually. The weapons don’t magically do less damage.
It’s clear you are wanting immunity for big ships to small ships when you try and spin things like this.