You can build one yourself with off-the-shelf parts to avoid the issue of a supply chain attack.
This one is airgapped with QR codes or sd-card:
This one can only use a sd-card:
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i agree. but thereâs categorical difference between using a banned payment system to purchase a legal product or service and using it to purchase illegal product or service. iâm not saying government will not see that as criminal behavior, iâm contrasting buying bread with abusing children. those are not the same âcriminalâ activities.
The problem is that by using money like this, you would be enabling the criminal elements to launder money from truly illegal activities. Even if you somehow managed to do something âinnocentâ - it would be tied into a larger criminal element and you participation in that economy (at the fringes) would directly benefit them.
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Are there no actual arguments left? This all feels a bit like scraping the bottom of the barrel.
You do know that the like absolute gigantic amount of money laundering and illegal businesses are facilitated in the legacy financial system with fiat money?
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Arkhis keeps beating this same drum, saying that he will do illegal stuff with Bitcoin, but it wonât have anything to do with criminals. I got tired of his baloney.
he will do illegal stuff with Bitcoin, but it wonât have anything to do with criminals
wait, since when is baking bread illegal?
Like I said, I hope you donât do anything that gets the CIA/NSA/etc interested in you because you arenât even close to smart or creative enough to protect yourself against anyone but the dumbest casual criminals.
thereâs always common sense amount of trust placed in tools you use
And now we come to the point of this little exercise: bitcoin requires faith just like conventional currency. You can whine all you like about how itâs âcommon sense trustâ but itâs also common sense trust that the US government is not going to arbitrarily zero my bank accounts.
PS: if you were half as smart and informed as you think you are youâd know that compromised hardware at the chip level is a major security concern.
nowhere in this discussion have i indicated that i am or would be having business with actual criminals
You made it very clear that you would deal with actual criminals. Even if you donât buy illegal material the people selling you a loaf of bread will be drug dealers/murderers/child abusers/etc running a side business facilitating illegal grocery sales. You donât get to deal with the mafia and then complain that technically the thing you bought wasnât illegal.
Baking bread is not illegal. Buying bread with bitcoin is, in the scenario where bitcoin is banned. Which means that the only people who will sell you bread for bitcoin are serious criminals who are already facing life in prison (or worse) if they get caught so adding on a few more years for illegal bitcoin use doesnât scare them.
As I pointed out to the other libertarian fanatic, compromised hardware at the chip level is a major security concern. Buying off the shelf hardware means trusting that your off the shelf hardware hasnât been backdoored by someone looking to steal bitcoin, and that the backdoors planted by the Chinese government/NSA/etc for state espionage reasons donât get discovered and exploited by common criminals.
PS: if youâre âair gappingâ but allowing your system to communicate by QR code or SD card you arenât air gapping your system.
A QR image that uses slightly different shades of dark gray to hide a non-human-readable image in the dark sections.
A QR image that uses slightly larger or smaller squares to hide a non-human readable image.
all detectable by other QR scanners on other air gapped PCs. unless of course, just like it always is, your argument is that literally everything everywhere is compromised by the same malicious party.
As soon as you interact with your wallet you require faith that your system has not been compromised and that you wonât lose all of your bitcoin.
nope, absolutely zero trust required when you know what youâre doing.
conventional currency if my bank account is compromised by a chip-level exploit I call my bankâs fraud number, report the incident, and they fix everything
except your bank has collapsed and the entire government as well, because, remember, we are in your fantasy world where literally everything has been compromised.
Youâve made it very clear that youâre human garbage proudly bragging about supporting child abusers
there we go, did it again, you absolute garbage of a human being.
The only people who will accept illegal bitcoin are
speculation. got anything else?
No. A normal QR scanner does not attempt to tell the difference between different shades of black, it only cares about black and white. A normal QR scanner will count 255,255,255 and 250,250,250 as the same color. A compromised QR scanner that knows what to look for will identify them as different colors and extract the data (and only tell you the data in the QR code itself, not the hidden data).
your argument is that literally everything everywhere is compromised by the same malicious party.
Not everything everywhere. Only a few specific systems compromised by people who know that QR codes are a popular means of âsecuringâ bitcoin wallets. It only requires a precisely targeted exploit aimed specifically at stealing bitcoin.
nope, absolutely zero trust required when you know what youâre doing.
âZero trustâ and âI think this is a reasonable thing to trustâ are not the same thing.
except your bank has collapsed and the entire government as well, because, remember, we are in your fantasy world where literally everything has been compromised.
I hardly think âsomeone found a way to exploit the Chinese back door on your chipsâ and âthe entire US government and financial system have collapsedâ are equivalent.
PS: if the government has collapsed to that point youâre in a dystopian anarchy and someone can steal your bitcoin by holding a gun to your head and telling you to hand over your precious 12 words. Not that theyâd bother, because bitcoin is worthless in this scenario and all trade will be in the form of gas/canned food/etc.
speculation
I understand that you are a delusional libertarian and bitcoin fanboy so you canât understand other people not having the same level of emotional attachment to bitcoin. But in the real world if bitcoin is banned 99.99999999% of people who are not serious criminals will immediately stop using it.
in short:
bitcoin unsafe because if all pieces required for it to be used are compromised youâre â â â â â â .
banks are ok because if all pieces required for it to be used are compromised nobody is â â â â â â .
â â â â your hypocrisy.
But in the real world if bitcoin is banned 99.99999999% of people who are not serious criminals will immediately stop using it.
speculation
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In short:
Bitcoin is unsafe because if a successful side channel attack is executed on your system and the attacker obtains your keys you immediately and permanently lose all of your bitcoin. Bitcoin depends on absolute 100% perfect security because any lapse is fatal.
Conventional banking is safe because if a successful attack is executed the banking and legal system has the ability to reverse the theft and restore your money. Conventional banking depends on âgood enoughâ security where an occasional lapse is an inconvenience, not a catastrophic loss.
Bitcoin requires a massive level of trust because the consequences for failure are catastrophic.
Conventional banking requires a minimal level of trust because the consequences of failure, outside of a dystopian fantasy where money no longer matters anyway, are an inconvenience.
speculation
I understand that you are a delusional libertarian and bitcoin fanboy so you canât understand other people not having the same level of emotional attachment to bitcoin. But in the real world if bitcoin is banned 99.99999999% of people who are not serious criminals will immediately stop using it.
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For some reason, the whole libertarian ethos seems to depend on underestimating the capabilities of actual governments - assuming that they are all bumbling amateurs. Did anybody hear about a guy named Edward Snowden? Or any of the massive cyberattacks that make the news every year?
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Yes, agreed.
Wrong. They know that governments are made up of fallible people and are not better than anyone else. When some government claims they have the solution to something, theyâre just as full of it as anyone else that claims they have a solution. The difference is government will force their solution on others, right or wrong. That makes them bumbling baffons, along with any of their apologist boot lickers.
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No, people dont trust them, and will gladly point out their mistakes, same as you need algorithm to assure transactions in Bitcoin, people work using social algorithms.
And that risk is always non-zero, contrary to your original claim that bitcoin does not require trust.
except in real world when the system is stressed just enough - nobody gets any money or of they get money back - that money is worthless. also money is getting worthless day by day by design.
In that scenario bitcoin is also worthless because the only things that have value in the post-apocalyptic wasteland are things with practical survival value: bullets, canned food, etc. You canât eat bitcoin, and you canât use bitcoin even if you can find someone willing to accept it because the internet and power grid are gone.
bitcoin required zero trust. nobody can debase it, nobody can touch your assets or make them vanish.
Weâve already been over how youâre wrong about this, and how using bitcoin requires trusting various people and/or pieces of technology.
speculation by a garbage of a human being ready to accuse anybody being child abusers without any evidence
Not anybody, just people like you who make public statements of intent to do business with drug dealers/child abusers/murderers/etc and who pretend that itâs ok to buy a loaf of bread from the mafia money laundering bakery as long as you didnât technically buy anything illegal directly. There are plenty of people who I disagree with, very strongly even, without making similar accusations against them.
And that risk is always non-zero, contrary to your original claim that bitcoin does not require trust
zero trust doesnât mean zero risk. i donât have to trust anybody but myself to use bitcoin and to be sure my wallet balance is going to stay where i want it to be.
because the internet and power grid are gone
sure, bitcoin will be worthless then. why did you even have to go this far? do you really think a tough inflationary crisis in america or even worldwide is going to cause this much damage? or are you saying this only because thatâs the only scenario when bitcoin is worthless (just like literally every other currency)?
Weâve already been over how youâre wrong about this, and how using bitcoin requires trusting various people and/or pieces of technology
you havenât demonstrated any trust in third party required to use bitcoin. trust in tools and your competence is irrelevant to this question.
just people like you who make public statements of intent to do business with drug dealers/child abusers/murderers
youâre a pile of human garbage for making false accusations like that.
same as you need algorithm to assure transactions in Bitcoin, people work using social algorithms
not nearly the same. humans are prone to errors of judgement and corruption. every democratic government runs on trust from people. when they lose that trust - they get voted out. sometimes they take financial system with them. happened too many times to reject this obvious fact.
Well, I should have added that the algorithm is just one step to assure the transaction takes place like you wanted it. There is a chain of events that can be interrupted in the middle between you and transaction taking place, so you have to check also your computer software and manufacturer of software and hardware you are using. If something goes wrong, you cant undo it.
Ocasionally also the power plant can have a malfunction, ISP can stop functioning, and ultimately even government can disallow it, or people may start getting out, or someone will succesfully hack. There is many things that can happen, with different degrees of inconvenience or even loss of value or even everything that was in wallet.