Why is the logi so fat?

PvP Gameplay Center PvP Ships & Modules
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Well, as I said, mass, inertia modifier, speed and align times are all linked.

Presumably, F=m x a still holds in Eve. So a = F/m, but in Eve it’s m’ = mass x inertia modifier.

Then it stands to reason that we can integrate to get speed:
v(t) = F x t/m’ + v0.
Align time is starting from rest so v0 is zero.

We want to know t_warp such that v(t_warp) = 0.75 v_max, warp off velocity. With a bit of rearranging, we get:
t_warp = 0.75*v_max x m’ / F

So to reduce align time, we could:
1 - Nerf v_max (bad)
2 - Lower m’ (OP as it buffs combat maneuvering too)
3 - buff thrust (!!!)

So… hum… I guess yeah, we could buff align time without really impacting agility or speed, maybe. Now on to the question of “should we?”.

Obviously, everything comes with a disadvantage. It is good that logi cruisers can’t keep up with frigs and destroyers, that’s what logic frigs are for.

Now… given that they have T2 resists profiles, small sigs and T2 warp speeds, they need some disadvantages too and align times really doesn’t seem like the end of the world.

It’s slow, sure, but on average, rounding up because of server ticks, many frigs align in 4 seconds, so 5 or 6 seconds is not that much slower. Similarly, cruisers align in 5 or 6 seconds, so 7 or 8 isn’t that bad either. “Healers” generally aren’t and probably shouldn’t be able to keep up with some of the most maneuverable/quick ships of the fleet.

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you can’t really get faster align time w/o getting more agi

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I thought so too, but there must be a hidden thrust variable that ships have which, along mass and inertia modifier, will determine their acceleration. Prop mods add to the thrust as well as the max velocity (and mass), for example. You can see the impact of thurst to mass when fitting an undersized prop mod (or a 500mn on an orca): it still accelerates super slowly even though it gains the same max speed bonus.

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24

it’s a flat variable iirc and increasing it will affect your agi.

you can not increase align time without affecting the agi.

and no it does not gain the same max seed bonus because this is tied to thrust and mass

or rather it gives the same max speed bonus but they do not bonus the max speed the same

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I could well believe that “intrinsic ship thrust” is the same for all ships, especially since it is never shown even though it would be an interesting variable. I’ll have to read up on align time calculations. Someone obviously knows since pyfa can calculate it.

Could it be changed from uniform? Maybe… but I’m still not convinced it should be any ways.

As for the rest of your post, I really like this part:

Essentially, thrust matters, somehow :wink: Eve-flavoured Newtonian physics just got Interesting!

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:slight_smile: Call me intrigued.

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Aren’t Gallente ships supposed to have better agility? So an agility buff on the Onerios would be great.

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As far as I know its caldari with the fast align time’s.

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Our logi is so fat, when he’s around the fleet …
… he’s around the fleet!

https://i.imgur.com/ekQpV59.gif(image larger than 3072KB)

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So, after a bit of looking around, I found the equations for align time and prop mods on EVE-Uni (what isn’t on that website, uh? Except up to date fits for months after a rebalance…)

As it turns out, thrust matters, but only to calculate the max speed bonus from prop mods. The thrust to mass ratio (which normally would be acceleration) actually influences speed, so our spaceships are really moving in thick aether/fighting PEG drag. Oh, and our 100MN afterburners have the same thrust as 500MN MWDs: 150MN W… T… F…?! Yeah, I know, they’re just numbers that make the game work, but it’s insane to label modules by their thrust without the label and actual thrust being related. Just call them small/medium/large/capital prop mods then!

Anyhow… back to the main point: align times only depend on ship mass and inertia modifier. I’m not sure if either of those are ever independent (ie if there is ever a formula that uses one but not the other), so unfortunately, tweaking them would change the performance of the ship all the time. It would be neat to be able to have variable in the velocity equation to represent acceleration, but oh well… For now, especially for armor based logi that fit plates, your best align time will be 7.5s, pulsing that afterburner.

Which brings me to this suggestion: Why not give them a bonus to reduce mass addition by plates and prop mods? They wouldn’t out-align cruisers, but if the cruisers are fit for armor buffer, then the logi could possible be similar.

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31

you… you meant minmatar right? caldari would be the fat slow shield race like the amarr are for armor

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I was surprised myself seeing Caldari having some really great align time maybe its only certain ships thou would have to check.

Ahh seem’s to only be some fw type ship’s that Caldari are rocking that align time.

Harpy: 3.53
Jag: 3.65

Jackdaw: 2.06
Svipul: 3.32

Corax: 4.42
Talwar: 4.48

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The thing about align time is that they only work in absolutes and decimal digits do not matter, they are always rounded up to the next higher value.

For example a ship that aligns with 3.44s and another that aligns at 3.55 seconds actually align at 4 seconds for the server due to your timer ticks.

That makes the Oneiros the slowest aligning cruiser in the game and the Celestis very sad.

That’s why I proposed in my first post to shove off one second in total. I am aware that either the total ship’s mass and or maximum velocities have to be changed to get there but I am still not convinced that one second will break EVE (more).

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34

Actually, changing max velocity achieves nothing since you need a % of it to warp off. The only thing to change is mass and that affects general maneuverability as well.

Looking again at your numbers, shaving off a second for logi frigates could make sense as there is quite a large difference here, but most logi cruisers are just one second slower than other cruisers at 7 compared to 6 seconds to warp. To me, it makes sense that logi ships would be slower, they already get huge bonuses in other areas.

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and inertia modifier. it’s those two combined that create the ships agi.

like i said 10mn fits are too common and they really don’t need a buff. At the same time it would not be worth removing 10mn fits as they currently are not broken and they are loads of fun to fly

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