Why is the logi so fat?

PvP Gameplay Center PvP Ships & Modules
1

This is something that bugs me a lot and I ask you, the audience, why the logi is so fat?

But before I go into that, let me put up some numbers (not made up but taken from client). All values are align time in seconds (s).

Navitas: 5.09
Inquisitor: 5.41
Bantam: 5.68 (1.480.00t mass)

Thalia: 5.02
Deacon: 5.34
Kirin: 5.50

Exequror: 6.29
Osprey: 6.34
Augoror: 6.74

Basilisk: 6.20
Guardian: 6.84
Oneiros: 7.57 (:frowning: the fat lady…)

Astero: 2.62
Executioner: 2.64
Atron: 2.75
Federation Navy Comet: 2.85
Garmur: 2.96
Condor: 2.99
Imperial Navy Slicer: 3.10
Tormentor: 3.13
Maulus: 3.23
Punisher: 3.23
Incursus: 3.30
Crucifier: 3.34
Caldari Navy Hookbill: 3.34
Merlin: 3.36
Kestrel: 3.41
Griffin: 3.46
Worm: 3.49
Tristan: 4.97

Harpy: 3.93 -> 3.53
Hawk: 4.29 -> 3.86
Enyo: 4.30 -> 3.87
Ishkur: 4.40 -> 3.96
Retribution: 4.52 -> 4.07
Vengeance: 4.64 -> 4.18

Catalyst: 3.37
Algos: 4.27
Corax: 4.42
Cormorant: 4.42
Dragoon: 4.57

Stratios: 4.11
Orthrus: 4.21
Exequror Navy Issue: 4.22
Osprey Navy Issue 4.24
Omen Navy Issue: 4.37
Vexor Navy Issue: 4.66
Caracal Navy Issue: 4.58
Augoror Navy Issue: 4.78
Thorax: 5.17
Omen: 5.23
Caracal: 5.42 (11.910.00t mass)
Phantasm: 5.57
Vexor: 5.82
Moa: 5.84
Maller: 5.86
Arbitrator: 5.87
Blackbird: 5.92
Gila: 5.93
Celestis: 6.52 (okay this one escapes me…)

As you can see the logi frigates are have around the same align time as cruisers, while have 1/10th of the mass.
Compared to other t1 or t2 frigates, the logi frigates have up to 70% higher align times.

What I would like to propose is that all logi ship get better agility.

  • Logi frigates should have sub 5 second base align time
  • Logi cruisers should have sub 6 seconds align time
  • The Oneiros is not a battleship
2 Likes
2

Balance.
It means combat ships can catch logi ships and out manoeuvre them.

1 Like
3

Maneuvering them out is not a problem even with the shorter align times, which comes down to mass.
I have never heard of all those un-killable Bantams, killing sooper doopers and oppressing everyone in EVE with unlimited power.
The armor logis are in an even worse state the second you put a plate on.

I am not asking for the world here. A Barghest with one nano aligns faster than an Oneiros. As tiny reduction of the time to warp will not break EVE.

1 Like
4

Was minmatar removed from the game?

2 Likes
5

I don’t fly minmatar and I don’t want to post values on ships I cannot confirm.

6

That’s funny. I never noticed logistics were so massive. I know the armor logi frigs have tennie tiny sigRad. So they must be really massive.

  • Deacon: 1634000t
  • Thalia: 1450000t
  • Kirin: 1480000t
  • Scalpel: 1420000t

Could try EFT/Osmium/etc to get your values for Minmatar. It also would remove any variation due to skills.

7

Well even if I leave the barbarians out of this, the picture is clear. Them logi frigates have the mass of destroyers and even worse agility.

I pulled some other ship align times as comparison, just for the purpose of looking at the align times or time(s) to warp from zero speed to 75%.
I hope that shoving off one second will not reign hordes of Bantams oppressing lowsec or nullsec all of a sudden over New Eden.

8

Hehe, oh I know. Under certain conditions they are “smaller” than an escape pod.

9

Its called a drawback. Everything meeds to have a weakness IMO, nothing should be the best of all worlds - erm… except the Worm, and the recently nerfed Orthrus :wink:, oh and the Jamming ships… hmmm… maybe things dont need to have a weakness.

All jokes aside, balance is a goal even tho sometimes its not perfect in game. Even those I named above have drawbacks and hard counters.

1 Like
10

Out of interest what counters a worm that is able to enter a novice fw site :stuck_out_tongue:

11

Web and scram when it enters if its a kite worm (which many are). If you mess up, slingshot if possible. The incoming dps from a Worms drones over time is rough, so you really want to catch him on entry and melt him as soon as possible.

If he’s already in the site, then your playing his game and not yours.

1 Like
12

Yea, he is in the site already with a faction web I still can’t find a way to beat one lol’s.

13

Have you looked at the sig radii of logi hulls?

As I recall (but am too lazy to check right now), logi hulls have quite small signature radii; more agility may make them too hard to hit.

1 Like
14

That’s the idea.

15

so not 100% sure this is the reason but 10mn logi frigates are really powerful when flown right, if these things got better agi… my god the monsters they would become

2 Likes
16

RLML still hit them for full damage :stuck_out_tongue: So only really godlike against gun ships, drones will also murder them lol’s.

1 Like
17

… no they don’t not even close even precision do less than half to the kirin the easiest of all of them to hit

18

Only when you fly a Kirin by yourself. An Orthrus will have a hard time shooting a pair of 10mn Kirins.

I wasn’t asking for more agility but align time. The Oneiros aligns slower than a Sin.

1 Like
19

Aren’t the two intrinsically linked?

Something like mass * inertia modifier giving how fast you can accelerate to warp speed from rest (typical align times) but also affecting how fast you can modify your velocity, affecting things like how close you can orbit something, how sharp you can turn.

The only way I know how to affect align time without touching agility is by reducing max speed (since then you hit the 75% to enter warp earlier). But for logi, nerfing speed wouldn’t be great, would it?

20

Nope it would be terrible. Mobility is key for logi, unless it’s some horde then you need more plates and mwds to be really good at not logi.

Looking at my numbers, would you say they are unreasonable?

I mean the Oneiros is the most terrible out layer by far and since align time is always in full server ticks, 8 seconds is a long time for chasing after your nano buddies, which are 3 systems ahead of you.

1 Like