This is the same thing. ‘Do things’ being other things. E.g. Go away and come back later.
Seriously?
Compare this stellar advice to: scram-kite the incursus that brawled your face off. Sling shot and overheat to catch that kiter.
Not including fittings.
You’re expecting players to do hours of plexing to get one or two ships they can lose in 10 minutes.
‘low sp’ for you is a months training or maybe more.
Start a new character.
I don’t deny that. But there is much more a noob can learn against another non-faction frig than they can a faction frig. E.g. A low skill attack frig is still faster than a fully skilled combat frig. But this is not the case against faction frigs. The faction frig is better in every way.
Finally, if we create a toddler plex, there is still nothing stopping new players from using dessies. All it does is allows both options. And stops this ‘go faction or get ■■■■■■’ attitude.
Other things are joining gangs or doing the same thing in a more cautious manner. You’re stocked on LP - you risk, you’ve risked your whole wallet away - you save your last ship to make more.
Where’s SP or ship type involved in this? That’s exactly what I mean when I say it’s not SP or hull price that make the most difference. They still need to spend time on forums or in chat to know what is scram-kite, slingshot and overheat. And then die several times in failed attempts to execute that.
Fitting a regular frig is the same isk as fitting a navy one.
You run a 10-minute plex - you can buy another ship you can lose in 10 minutes. You run a 20 minute plex - you paid for your dessie and can buy 2 more navy frigates on top of that. So don’t dramatize - the risks are well paid and the boring side of fw is still a thing to get used to.
It can’t be better in all ways simultaneously. You can catch a slicer in a merlin, you can kite an ab comet in a tristan. The curve angle of pilot’s arms is mitigated in a way that has nothing to do with ship types or skill points.
So now you’re saying new players should be more cautious when they run away, until they have enough SP to not run away?
Genuinely, you’re optimal strategy for new players seeking entry level pvp is to avoid fights and farm instead.
Yes they will. But when facing faction frigs it doesn’t matter if they know these tactics or not.
A noob isn’t going to scram-kite a faction, or kite it or brawl it. They sure as ■■■■ aren’t going to sling shot it without good navigation skills. Their only option is leave.
That’s the problem. There are no options against faction frigs. Except leave.
They do when you talk to people. You see friendly and open a convo to ask if they’re interested in hunting that smug-face kiki together.
And if you join an actual pvp fw corp they gonna happen all the time. Especially if it’s a small corp with 10-ish active members willing to help each other.
Catching kiters when you’re in a plex is all about staying at 0, hitting approach when they enter and being quick about your preheated tackle mods. No skill matters in this particular situation. Only thermodynamics level 1 and your own clicking sequence. Kiting an ab frigate is not that complicated either. A faction frigate not gonna magically burn over 3K if she only has an AB. Unless it’s a succubus.
There are always options. You can stay at safe range, look the opponents behavior and then decide whether you take it or not.
I’m sorry, is it 12?
I won’t because I’ve already done that as a new character with very little knowledge of pvp mechanics. I’ve been running plexes solo and in small gangs with my wallet fluctuating at about 30 mil isk. My skills were a mess of level 3s and 4s of all the crazy things in the universe. Getting a new firetail from LP store wasn’t a problem. Ever.
So I’d rather advise you to stop suiciding miners in hisec and go try some actual fw yourself.
Would be even easier in a merlin since she has more med slots
Then how do you explain that actual absence of gangs?
Maybe people aren’t talking to eachother. What’s your suggestion to change that?
Whilst moving slower and locking slower than a fully trained character.
Yeah thanks, i give the exact same advice to players i kite against but i find it easy enough to slip into plexes as kiter against vets, it’s only easier against new players.
Why not try starting a new character.
Three years old char. So you have navigation and targeting skills new players don’t.
Start a new character. You have, quite simply, forgotten what it’s like to be a new player.
Everyone can learn something from occasionally starting a new character.
7 years and counting. With Alphas more recently too.
(we’ve actually been in the same corp. You joined shortly after i left)
I love the irony that you’re telling new players they can take on faction frigs in non-faction frigs when a check of your killboard shows you don’t even manage that yourself…except once in 2016 it appears.
You don’t think you might have forgotten what it’s like to be a new player?
They are not public. Try sitting in a plex a pirate ship - you’ll quite soon see that gangs are not absent.
I dunno. Kill them so then can get smarter?
Well, you were talking about absolute superiority of faction ships over regular ones and didn’t believe me when I said they’re not outside of the overall rock-paper-scissors meta.
I’m literally describing you what I was doing as a new player. 1) Plex in a dessie 2) Get a navy frigate and look for trouble 3) goto 1. Well yea, first 30 days of free trial were dedicated to hisec shenanigans like ninjaing rich carebears wrecks so I could buy a plex. The next month I spent as a lone TLF scrub running plexes and desperately trying to kill something. Killed a poorly fitted tristan once in my thrasher with t1 guns. Lost that thrasher to a cambion. Spent quite some time in the militia chat rallying a hunting party for that shiny little thing, while the cambion pilot’s minny alt was making fun of me. The glorious hunt didn’t happen because everyone knew that guy knew better than welping his shiny into a gang. So I spent the rest of that plexed month welping more ships, flying in public fleets and participating in pvp events on ingame radio show. Then took a break for a year. In about a week after I came back I joined a pvp fw corp - and that’s when the things really changed - I had company, good advice and example to follow. Condor | Jek Lazair | Killmail | zKillboard - this I could call my first legit solo kill. I had about 2 months worth of SP and shortage of firetails wasn’t really a thing. I’ve been flying navy ships since my character was effectively 2 months old. And yes, they can give an edge to new player, they are available to new player. They don’t give that much edge so a regular frigate absolutely has no chances.
Now why is it bad to introduce an even smaller plex than novice. Faction warfare zone is not just a place where people can bait each other into fair or unfair fights with some gated complexes. It is also a place where small corps and big alliances aligned with one faction or the other strive for their faction to control as many systems as possible. And they use all active numbers at their disposal in order to do so. Which means most of the time one side greatly outnumbers the other. The ability to upship is critical here for the side with less numbers. That’s where pirate ship pilots seize being filthy newbie abusers and become 1vBlob heroes. That is also where novice plexes become of strategic importance because they have shortest timers and they can push the system out of vulnerable when a big fleet of big ships is bashing the hub. If there’s a plex which only allows regular t1 frigates and it gets occupied by 20 1-day alts it is veteran players who gonna be pissed about the situation. So there’s too much potential of misuse for that quite useless and obsolete feature meant for newbie players who are not supposed to have influence on things that big.
You keep stretching my words. You were talking about non-faction ships being worse than faction in every way. I told it is not true.
You keep saying faction ships are not available to new players. I’m telling you they are. It is 10-15 minutes and a maximum of 7 weak rats that separate them from buying one.
So why is there a need for another complex that’s gonna ban everyone (new players included) from using faction ships, but not gonna save them from being outnumbered, outskilled and outsmarted by anyone who’s willing to do that?
I encourage you to start a new character and try some entry level pvp at, you know, entry level.
Or is your advice to go away and come back later?
Nothing you describe is denied by a toddler plex.
Up shipping can still be done for 80% of plexes. The system is in no danger of being flipped because you have to down ship for toddler plexes. You just cap every other plex. This is infact already the case. And not only will you cap faster, you’ll cap further before you run out of sites.
You can still fly a faction frig from 2 months old too.
It is another entity that has to be reckoned with - too big of a variable for too minor cause. And it narrows the tactical possibilities of an outnumbered faction. When there’s a struggle for an important system that system gets stripped of plexes completely. Maybe there a should be a plex for rookie ships too? So a 1-day alt could make a system invulnerable with his velator in that baby-level plex?
Only because players haven’t tried it. Dedicated bait fits survive. As to your concern that the enemy might escape tackle due to speed, there is not shortage of ways to address that either. I need not enumerate them. I have never found baiting and maintaining tackle to be a problem in practice. The only problem that exists is that players don’t try, and that vets aren’t putting together baited fleets and newbies aren’t looking to join/form fleets led by someone else who knows how to run baited fleets.
The core problem that exists is not a mechanics problem but a cultural problem, and the cultural problem exists because as a whole players never attempted a style of gameplay to the extent for it to become the meta. Too many “solo good fight”, not enough “baited fleet FW gank” videos videos and forum/Reddit posts.
Increases them how? By encouraging them to stick to regular frigates only? When they can actually try destroyers and navy frigates?
New players remain new for months. Faction warfare swings back and forth for years. One side always outnumbers the other. The majority of new characters is usually on the numerous side - that’s where they can get rich faster. Many of them don’t even plan to stay in fw for long. The outnumbered side is usually a small bunch of commited vets and a handful of enthusiastic noobs. Do these people really need to adapt to the fact that the new smallest and fastest plex is a place where only numbers matter?
Does one guy really needs to be fair to 3 noobs spinning his home system together so their older kin can log in at their prime and flip it with minimum effort?
A toddler plex supposedly meant for newer players gonna affect all players. Not in a way that you’d expect. So which one is more important new player experience or overall player experience?
This makes no sense. If toddler sites encourage only sticking to non-faction frigs, then the current novice sites only encourage sticking to faction frigs.
How is that better?
New players join the faction warfare of the race they’ve picked. They don’t travel across hi-sec, run some missions to grind their standings back up after lowering them during the tutorial missions and then join the other sides FW.
A toddler plex will affect all players by moving the meta slightly away from faction frigs further to non-faction frigs.
Boo-frikken-hoo.
Only one plex of 5 (maybe 6) will be about numbers (not that gangs are common anyways). In every other site you can up-ship. So no need to worry about losing systems because you are outnumbered but not outgunned.
Every plex has only top restriction. Bottom restriction is common for every plexes but open - no rookie ships, no barges and so on. So if you want to bring a ship that is better, you are welcome. This is factional warfare after all. Faction ships are naturally easier to get for people involved in it. This applies to navy frigates. Stop denying this - a noob can get a navy frigate after capturing 1 novice plex. It is 2, if his faction is all the way in tier 1. Pirate frigates are expensive ones and that is challenge to veteran players as well. A fair challenge with fair odds. Yes, rookies should just gtfo most of the time if they a pirate frigate on short. Still, they can try their chances against a blaster ab daredevil with a kitey ship. Or a garmur if they’ve learned thermodynamics 1 and signature analysis 4.
Faction frigs? Factional warfare? Makes sense to me.
I don’t know which part of space you come from where gangs are not common, but I am pretty sure people don’t solo ihubs there. I’m telling you that when a system is suddenly very wanted by both sides (it is vulnerable, and the defenders are willing to keep it) not gangs but actual fleets come. And at this point every single plex counts. It is a quite common situation when the defenders are only able to keep a system through their opponents prime by temporary being superior in novice plexes by quality rather than quantity. Temporary - because the attackers gonna eventually ship down - it is plex spawning time and the timers that allows them to hold ground. If you add one more type of complex which has more restrictions - that fragile balance is shattered.
I’m only describing an example of possible repercussions of adding a new plex with new restrictions - an entity that has influence on warzone control. There might be more of those repercussions.
What is the purpose of this toddler plex?
So the newbies could do fw from day 1? Well, lowsec is not really meant for that. Tutorials are. But if they are confident enough to try - welcome. Be aware that you will lose ships, and it aint gonna be very fair because people here see a complex you’re trying to capture from a different perspective and they are likely to disagree with your intentions.
Or is it supposed to separate regular frigates from faction ones?
Why anywhere in factional warfare is there need for a place where you cannot fly the smallest version of faction ship? Because newbies cannot buy one? BS! They can if they’re persistent enough to capture one site by any means they’re comfortable with - be it losing ships, being lucky, calling for help or waiting for the opposition to leave.
The problem about this new-player-intended feature is that it’s gonna influence all players, not just new ones. From that perspective it is obsolete and potentially harmful. From newbie’s perspective it changes too little - they have better chances in slightly unfair conditions (newbie in a faction ship against a regular one, not the other way around). Do I need to say it again? Navy frigates are cheap enough: one novice - you got it.
To summarize, nursing newbies is not that important, that the whole meta should be changed. You don’t send your kid to work at the age of 5 and expect them to be a successful employee. The employer’s gonna say that the kid is not useful enough for a wage. They’d go bankrupt if they were doing that kind of charity.
Im saying that they can do that if they see it much to bear with. The whole universe doesn’t have to bend for them. Lowsec is meant to be a hostile environment where non-provoked aggresion is mildly frowned upon (via sec status) but not enforced in any direct way. It is their choice if they think they can take that. Can you feel the difference?
Personally I don’t see the odds they currently have as impossible. But their best chances do not lie within boundaries of fair (ship-wise) engagements - odds of meeting an equally undertrained character are slim. My first solo kill in lowsec happened when I was 1 month old - thrasher vs. blaster tristan, mostly luck.
It is inside of the plex that matters too much.
Yes. I don’t see any need for that specifically in factional warfare zone.
I already told you how it’s gonna be consequential to all players. And a nearly non-existent break for noobs - they gonna lose to non-faction ships too and they gonna lose the option to upship to faction to shift the odds in their favor.
The first one is fast, the second is effortless. Luck and skill is somewhere in between.
I don’t understand why you think newbs should be winning from day 1. Eve is not hellokitty online - it works different.
And I don’t understand why you think factional warfare zone is some kind of pvp sandbox for newbies. It started as dev-implementation of a players initiative of roleplay-based alliance warfare.
You are greatly exaggerating the problem, stretching words to your own perception and dramatizing. You are also pretending not to hear of side effects.
‘Poor newbs can’t win on their birthday - people actually shoot them’. What a tragedy, let’s provide them with a safezone capable of tilting the balance of an entire gameplay section
There is just no constructive feed back when facing faction frigs. There is no rock paper scissors to learn when faction ships are both faster and tougher.
But this isn’t the case against non-faction frigs. A new attack frig will out pace a veteran combat frig. A new combat frig will out tank a veteran attack frig. There is something to learn.
The very fact you’re saying: ‘go faction or get ■■■■■■’ and ‘come back in a month’ is the very indication that entry level pvp is not actually entry level.
If there were more gangs in FW it would mitigate this problem. But the reality is there isn’t. If there were alternative entry level small gang pvp it would mitigate this problem. But the reality is there isn’t.
The reality is that faction warfare is suggested by the game as a place to try out pvp and the advice from the vets is to ■■■■ off for a month and/or fly expensive and SP intensive ships.
