You can try to explain what does not need explaining, Max.
Your idea falls short of a solution:
(1) you decrease the number of wars too drastically via the rigs, making it a hard cap. You don’t need rigs for that, just ask CCP for a hard cap on the max number of wars declared per wardec’er at any moment.
(2) you re-introduce starbase charters as a “fuel”, although those charters are really only an extra cost in LP/ISK. These charters have nothing to do with wardec related gameplay at all, at any time. They don’t add gameplay.
You also target POCO “empires” for these starbase charters. Bob knows why. They don’t change anything about wardec mechanics or the wars themselves. It’s just a way of introducing extra cost and maintenance on an enterprise that is tiny in terms of turnover, let alone profit. The likely result of that is again more npc owned customs offices with a flat and more reasonable tax rate.
… Whereas a fueling mechanic like the one I suggested adds directly to wardec gameplay, pure and simple, without putting limits on wardec’rs willing to invest with more gameplay (time and isk), but with the added benefit of counterplay with a low threshold - something I think is essential for hisec dwellers. Beside head on-attacks, which very rarely happen in hisec wars, I suggested to add the possibility of sabotage among other things, to influence the course of a war. Maybe it could work, maybe CCP devs already know it can’t work, maybe they don’t see wardec spammers as a problem, who knows…
It is only a hard cap for those not trying to do higher level “end game” play. And for those that wish to try their hand at the level of play can do it if they have ISK, Resources, and players in their group to pull it off.
At a rate of 4,320 charters per day, 30,240 per week, 1,572,480 per year that equates to
21,600 LP per day
151,200 LP per week
7,862,400 LP per year
Thats a lot of LP, for 1 PoCo or astrahus…so multiply that by number of planets in system, ad any upwell structure(s) a group feels is needed as well…like the ppl that have 18 athanors up in a single system.
It does have to do directly with the wardec related gameplay…
Because since your a Nullbrain, Wardecs are about control as much as Sov hubs and now skyhooks will be in Nullsec.
I lived in nullsec for quite awhile.
I have always lived in HS at the same time though.
I know more about HS then any of you null line members.
Players that know me always ask…
Max how can run so many accts?
Max how can you afford to pay more than Jita on things?
Max how can you sell us plex cheaper than Jita?
Max how are we going to implement this plan of yours…? (max magically pulls out 200 billion here, 150 there, 400 over there…)
I plex upwards of 30 accts, and i do it on the backs of whales, nullsecrs, and anyone else that does not know how to live in HS.
Stagnation is setting in more and more and not just in Nullsec, something has to change…and I personally believe forcing the War Dec dynamic to be more dynamic, more of a pain in the ass for people like me, Omega and Friends, Blackflag, Wreckin Machine, Coalition of Miners, etc etc. Or at least for the leadership of such groups.
But lets just talk about PoCo’s, since you mention them very specifically in every one of your replies…
What do you think the greatest asset about PoCo’s is in HS anyway?
The first is that in terms of hisec players, wars fall only on those that want to do indy, that is not actually very clever because PvE players are a lot more able to fight wars.
The second is that solo and very small war deccers are prevented from playing war decs in hisec as it is too difficult.
So my proposal was to remove the requirement to have a structure to be war decced, but to limit each entity to 3 concurrent war decs at any point in time, but if they want more then they can put down a war HQ and can do ten wars.
Because my proposal applies a hard limit to the number of wars that can be done per entity as compared to unlimited wars if you can fund it at the moment. it will not be open season on new players as such, people will have to carefully select their targets.
The objective is to get wars back to smaller more focussed, and more interesting wars.
Another issue is the inability to be in a proper fleet with allies, allies cannot rep the people they are allied with, this is ridiculous and prevents people joining up to fight more organised fleets.
I’m not necessarily convinced that solo or small groups couldn’t put down a structure to participate in wars if they really wanted to. I could - I just don’t really have any desire.
A hard cap is all fine and good, but without the structure requirement you could easily have dozens of shell corporations to literally harass any number of small groups at will.
I think all you’d end up seeing is players migrating back to NPC corporations en masse to avoid constant war decs. Or logging in less frequently. Or both. I’m not sure it would have the effect you’re looking for…
Don’t you think allowing allies to pile-on as well would further unbalance things?
The reason you don’t see a lot of structures in high-sec outside of industry variants is that they immediately get war dec’d and are cost prohibitive to operate (since many players are wary of placing any kind of asset on player-owned structures) - so you have to fund it entirely within your own group.
… but the "higher level ‘end game’ " you refer to has zero - nothing - nada to do with that other gameplay called hisec wars, you know … pee-vee-pee. Moreover, t2 salvage for t2 rigs, which is what you mentioned specifically, isn’t exactly hard to get, nor is it “end game”.
I keep repeating myself, don’t I.
I’ll give it to you that at least you don’t go the way of the “one single player should be able to wardec entire blocs without the need for a structure” advocates. But that’s about all the value I can find in it.
Which has what to do exactly with the hisec war gameplay ? That you force people to run missions ? That you want to control an emerging market segment so you can plex more ?
You control a few hisec gates and an undock or two at most on a good day, brother, the rest is rich imagination. Perhaps it takes a Nullbrain to see it for what it is, lol.
Did I ?! I wasn’t aware of that. I see poco’s only as a feeble sort of hisec income generation (there’s that nullbrain again, we’re used to play with a different order of magnitude in income generation, I apologize), and to become a potential wardec target. Clearly poco empires seem to frustrate you, hence you include them in your pitch, and want them to consume massive amounts of “fuel”. Hmm, I think I prefer @Syzygium 's idea from October last year, lol.
Still, requiring fuel for a poco doesn’t involve a deeper level of gameplay - just more tedium - whether the owning entity is involved in a war or not…
So no, Max, POCO’s are NOT on my mind AT ALL when it comes to wardecs.
Vanitas, omnia vanitas, and very much beside the point. It’s only a game, Max.
So you consider yourself somewhat of an authority, in a way.
Not that it matters when comparing ideas, unfortunately, because …
… here we finally come to the self-interest, the explanation why you dislike my (embryonic) suggestion, the good cui bono challenge, and why you failed to even try to address it (bar the borderline expletives and ad hominems).
Yes, I can imagine that it would be a bit of a change for you personally, but to the benefit of everyone else, especially including less pvp-oriented, less ISK amassing hisec players who would see an interesting - but still challenging - way to influence your chosen path of influencing them.
At least, you can’t accuse me of having a self-interest here. After all, as I’ve mentioned more than once, nullsec (brains, line members and leadership) on average don’t care about hisec games at all. Do you know why ?
@Max_Deveron I’m trying to understand the rationale for your suggestion. I’ve made a few assertions here, so apologies in-advance if I’m off on anything.
Industrial players are the only smaller groups that really utilize structures in high-sec (making them eligible for war), but they don’t offer much content, ie: avoiding fights, quickly surrendering. Underwhelming “pew-pew”.
There are larger groups, but these are associated/linked to large alliances - and thus pose too great a risk to attack. Too much “pew-pew”.
Finally, we have everyone else. Large and small groups alike who don’t care to throw up a structure or participate in war-decs. For whatever reason, let’s place them in the “PvP-averse” category, ie: not opposed to PvP, but not interesting in fighting impossible odds all the time. These are mainly casual players (many of which are also alts). The only way to engage them is to gank them (not always possible or profitable). No “pew-pew”.
It really sounds like the target audience with your proposal is #3. They comprise the majority of players in high-sec that can’t be touched with any kind of war dec and offer the best opportunity for PvP.
But here’s the problem. First, most of these players will just not login if the target of a war-dec. Second, the ones that do need or have to login will just transfer to an NPC corporation. The third option - that players will continue their activities as normal and provide you with a free shooting gallery - is extremely unlikely.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. there’s no reason for them to throw up a structure, there doesn’t seem to be any structure bonus which relates to Eve pve hi-sec content. Until this changes I don’t think there will be much progress.
Removing the structure requirement and then imposing any sort of limit on the amount of war-decs corps can instigate is also a bad idea. War deccers could just purchase more eve subscriptions train the alts for corp management and then war- dec with alt corps and have other corps join fleets. It would just create a bigger war-dec consortium who depend on eachother for war-decs. If the OP’s proposed changes were made then the war-deccers can mobilise immediately using “pay to win” features where they buy and apply XP for their corp war dec alt.
Of course there are large and small groups not interested in war-decs, once they are given a good reason for structures they will get it. War is a risk and is costly there simply has to be an incentive and currently there doesnt seem to be much incentive to get a structure.
Yes, I agree. current ideas will result in more stagnancy and moving backwards in a frustrated manner. Tons of pilots will be irritated to have to go back to an NPC corp due to mechanics changes and we would risk losing players.
Perhaps I could throw a question directly to some combat pilots with no strucure.
Combat/pve pilots, if structures existed that gave amazing bonuses to many aspects of PVE would you get a structure?
These arguments seem to be stagnating. That might be because they are circling around a larger issue in Highsec; that of non-consensual PvP.
What some commentators are proposing appear to be various means of regulating and reining-in the ‘non-consensual’ part of war decs.
There’s nothing wrong with trying to do that, but now that I can see it as part of that larger debate, I’m even less inclined to follow this thread; so I’m out, folks!
A good example is Destiny Corrupted, that is a small war deccer IMO, but because he has the ability to annoy people and has done so, he cannot put down a war HQ, it gets blown up very quickly. As I think solo war deccers are good for the game I think allowing three war decs without the need for a war HQ is a good thing. He is so badly affected by this that he had to beg me to put a war HQ down and war dec him which I found ridiculous, but then I realised that this was not really a good state of affairs.
Shell corps, of course, but that makes wars smaller by definition and reduces the size of the major war dec alliances. I know that they would do this, however it is meant to dilute their strength and make them look at smaller more targeted wars.
Of course that could happen, but did we have daily login benefits during the previous war dec system like this, no we did not, and after a while of not being jumped on by shell corps people would go ho hum this is dumb! And play the game…
Not at all, allies are for defenders only and is to help people gather the will to fight back, Aaron would do this well imo.
yes, take compression away from orca and porpoise, force ppl to use refinery’s to compress everything again in HS.
That would force ppl to want to have a structure, and allow ppl like me to say “well then you have to be willing to fight for it for me to invest the resources to put them down, if you refuse afterwards, ie stay logged out, drop to npc, etc…then i just kick you or not allow you back after advocating to be WD eligible and then not help defend.”
Compression is fine for those ships and makes total sense, they will not remove that function for HS. It enables people to move ore to structures that are owned by entities that are able to defend them which is fine and dandy. Those ships are used in other areas of space and that functionality is valued highly. So CCP will not change that for war decs, which is obviously low down on their list of priorities.
They do for indy in terms of refining and production, but it costs a huge amount due to the rigs, which need to reduce in price or the base ones need to be better.
Since this is me, the answer is a resounding “yes”. I’m just spitballing here - so please don’t rake me over the coals too badly… Citadel (only) modules that could:
• Improve warp speed for corporation members in that system (only).
• Improve NPC bounties for corporation members in that system (only).
The problem is, ppl that want to play a PvP oreinted game and just be left alone…but then they want to be in corp, that corp wants to be in an Alliance. I can just gank the crap out of them…ive done it before…the alliance or corp folds, the players complain, they get frustrated, they quit the game. That is the problem actually.
There is no 1,2,3 options here in my suggestions. My suggestion has only 1 option…
you want to have a corporation for whatever reason.
Corporations form an Alliance for whatever reason.
The Leadership of those entities then try to address the concern of content for their membership.
members want to moon mine
members want better taxes or whatever from PoCo’s
members want a safe haven to warp to in systems without stations.
some membership want anti-FoB protection( req military wing)
some want anti-gank protection(req a military wing)
some just want to be in a group that knows how to do things.
So leaders are now compelled to want to put up Upwells, control PoCo’s, control somewhat access to ore and ice belts…so they need to figure out how to:
Fund things
provide content for PvPr’s
The first one is easy, the second one not so much.
so (@Wadiest_Yong listen closely to this next bit) my suggestion(s) have to do with providing Leaders the ability to have content geared for those just want to be in a group and want to feel great about themselves being useful in that group as a casual or more than casual player but not exactly a PvP oriented player. Ie, starbase charter LP grinding, resource collection to feed the military wing, a military wing to do ganks/ wardecs/and wardec defense.
As shines said(think it was shines) a few meta shows back, his job is to provide content for Initiative…the avg line member dont have to deal with SKyhooks in nullsec or the Sov ownership stuff…what they want is ability to mine, run combat anoms, be able to be protected, their group to be able to gain and hold more territory for the first 2 things of this nullsec list.
In this regard Null and HS are the same…and they are stagnating. CCP is trying to fix nullsec, trying to spice things up…provide a gameplay for Leadership that will hopefully provide a more granular approach to the content making in the future.
That is what im proposing for HS. 3 or 4 maybe 5 major entities control all of the PoCo’s in HS.
PPL like myself, plus Safety and Code control the majority if not all of the ganking content in HS.
The Blackflag, wrecking machine, srs, pain and compliance,(and a just a few others in taht coalition) control basically all of the Upwell,wardec, moon mining content in HS and as hired thugs get paid by the those controlling the PoCo content.
There is no more room for small entities to do anything, there is no room for for most casual players…and there is definitely no room any one that doesnt want to be on voice comms, be an active player, etc…
But what if me, BF, Omega and Friends, Safety…were suddenly forced to make room for such players by way of game mechanics? and by forced…ppl like me, Khromius, Omega…we dont have to grind the LP at least not at first…we are space rich, over a decade of playing under our belts we can buy practically whatever we want, build what we want…but now if we had to start grinding ISK, or LP or both to feed Charters into PoCo’s and Upwells…well now we need to have true HR departments, we need those casuals to keep the content we like or are striving for…we need a labor force so to speak…and we need to protect that labor force and provide content for them and the ones that will be doing the actual pvp shooting.
at the end of the day, you get corporations that are not just some filler/social group, you get smaller focused war dynamics, and you get more of them…over wars and control that actually matter
Everything is PvP in high-sec to some extent, ie: at war with other traders, other manufacturers, other miners, other explorers, other ratters (arguably to a lesser extent in high-sec). The only activity that has less PvP interaction is missioning, although players are routinely ganked, have their MTUs shot or mission objectives stolen - so it’s not entirely immune. I guess salvaging is a fairly hassle-free activity as well.
It really sounds like you’re struggling to provide PvP content for your line members in high-sec- but the reality is that most players in high-sec are averse to the type of PvP ‘content’ that you’re proposing.
Why? Most players are PvE fit - since that’s the predominant type of content/activity in high-sec. A lot may be anti-gank fit as well, but it’s still mainly PvE fits.
PvP fit is going to trump PvE fit in any encounter. Full stop. Pile on odds (which will assuredly happen), and the outcome is a foregone conclusion. So to engage is abject futility - which is why you’ll see corporations the target of a war dec simply surrender, players transfer to an NPC corporation or simply stop logging in.
…
I’d consider myself a casual EVE player. I login when I want, I do the activities when I want - and I interact how I want. My “type” may not be the majority, but there are a lot of us - and we’ll quickly adapt to your type of “content” - by avoiding it entirely. I’ll take the hit from the NPC corporation and simply carry on. So what exactly did your proposal accomplish?
nah, not struggling to provide content for PvP in HS…everything is PvP(player versus player).
Combat pilots do not want to babysit activities for those unwilling to defend their content.
But quite a few want to moon mine, especially mining multiboxers.
So force a paradigm where the “PvEr’s” have to do content to upkeep the content they want to do…including PI in HS. This will sastisfy some “PvPr’s” cause now the casuals and miners and mission runners wont be seen so much as dead weight.
I have yet to be ganked in many years…a mining orca, no shield booster to rep with…can do up to 900 dps with T1 drones and run Lv4’s…is it PvE fit…yes its a miner.
A combat fitted orca for missions can still have over 430k EHP with great resists, run a shield booster, and do up to 1200 dps…is it PvE fitted…maybe, maybe its PvP fitted when in a fleet of orcas
I can by myself produce around 10 Billion ISK in a single day…with 1 character, ideally with 2.
I drop my orca fleet in my home area, and some in your category go:
Thats awesome
How can I get an orca…(and i will tell them they dont want one with a single acct)
Others try to accuse me of botting
Some think i mine to fast with them…until
I drop my skiffs instead…and blast everything they try to mine plus more…your “type” cant compete…cant pvp me in that category…
My home area…myself and a couple of others…we are massive multiboxers…we can field up to 70 miners…we can field up to 100 gank characters…your “type” dont affect us in terms of gameplay…
I personally have no use for casuals at this time…i wont waste my energy on someone that does not want to be an “EvE Player” to teach them the so called “ropes”. Because I have no reason to.
Now if such a player wants to invest more time/effort into stuff, wants join our group, be on voice comms…become a more active player…without Leaving HS…then sure I will consider changing my mind…and in turn…such a person gets my knowledge, Plex at around 1.3 billion ISK for 500 units, and the more meaniful gameplay that person might be now seeking…cause he/she is part of a group that wants to do things besides spin their wheels.
I and my group dont have the inclination to cater to casuals…at this time.
Now my proposal is aimed to fix that…fixing wardecs, and stagnation in HS has to start at the top I believe, not the bottom…force Leaders to have to figure in everyone, to include casuals into their frame work of how they do things.
Force me to stop saying “Get gud” or “stop being a scrub” or “i simply dont care what you think cause you cant affect anything so you are not important to me in the slightest.”
That is what my proposal is aimed at…people like me, force us to have to make the casual just as important as anything else…and maybe, just maybe…slow the stagnation that is surely slowing creeping through this game.
I don’t mine, so that whole aspect is really lost on me. I’m kind of confused by your proposal then, since it’s clear you primarily reside outside of high-sec (no moon mining there last I checked) - and your comment alluding to “without leaving high-sec”. So war-decs don’t really apply outside of high-sec since everything not blue gets shot in null and anything in low-sec gets shot period.
It sounds like you want to have your cake (low-sec, null, wormholes) and eat it to (high-sec) - whenever it’s convenient. Or you want to use your war dec system to drive players out of high-sec into other areas (low-sec, wormholes, null). I just don’t see it accomplishing any of that…
It is interesting your conversation with Max Deveron, the simple fact is, that he and people like him are one of the main reasons for the stagnation across the game that he says he loves. Well he does, but that is because he has found the angle to win at it, and leverages that like crazy, but do you know what is the issue for him and those are like him, boredom. I have pointed out that if they keep doing this then the game will eventually just end up being made up of people like him, and then stagnation is what we see.
My suggestion for war decs is to try to get around this.
He is most definitely focussed on hisec, I think he is the guy running those massed Orca fleets in Caldari space for years.
He can’t read what I post as he has me blocked, but you can see that his post above is pretty boastful and full of himself, mainly because he wants you to know and he feels superior. It is amusing in one sense.
There is a hisec blue donut, he for example has all his miners in a corp with no structure, he has links with the war deccers, it is real. The only way CCP could deal with this type of dominance is to restrict to a max of ten accounts and to police it aggressively. For many years I proposed a linked account setup that gave benefits too. My proposal was to move it away from massed account dominance. We all know that in what you can a gank style PvP that excessive multi-boxing works, especially in fire and forget type mode, but when combat becomes more dynamic they have an issue, that is why CCP were on the right track with the lock breaker module, but it was never put on the thing that most needed it. Anyway, CCP are what they are.
I think it is, they really made medium structures appallingly bad and easy to kill, but that was because the nullsec FC’s had difficulty in getting people to shoot them in the shield and armour timers. People who use them still do the massed drop approach. Hisec never had that issue, instead it was a sort of gift to war deccers, at least initially, but it made it so easy that many people gave up, so in the end very destructive to the long term future of the game.