A better way for War dec's

So, essentially it’s your dream to establish hisec sovereignty without … sovereignty. And thus far you’ve been somewhat able to do that via wardec’ing, right ? That means you found a convenient loop hole and want to widen it. Let’s all be very clear about this: you only need a military arm in your organization to continue to wardec, because you can’t be arsed to do it anywhere else but in hisec.

And yet, ever since the first one was put up, the first week after the Equinox release, the “average line member” does have to deal with Skyhooks, both on defense (24/7) and on offense. Every single “average line member” at any moment ? No, of course not. There are plenty of tasks that need doing to be able to hold and defend the sovereignty.

Why stop there ? Any functioning and well-run - aka content providing - entity anywhere on the map will have different sets of tasks.

Equinox is primarily a headache for any leadership team, and the consequences of the changes - which are under heavy challenge, btw - are not even clear yet. Yes, leadership teams have to decide where to install what in order to try to establish a defendable position, and it involves a lot of spreadsheet work. And these teams try to do it in such a way that gameplay is not affected negatively for their membership. There is ZERO doubt that it will affect gameplay for everyone in different ways, from resource gathering, via industry and sales, day to day pvp, up to nullsec sov wars. If CCP announces that as “re-invigorating”, that will be for us to decide whether it’s fun we want to pay for. That it leads to change is, however, certain.

Yet owning a simple poco is enough to get wardec’d. There’s your solution. It’s not like you are facing the Tranquility Trading Consortium - which was indeed paying mercs to wardec, among other things. So why don’t you ? Don’t like structure grinding ?

which is not blowing up ships, but rather keeping non-pvp’ers busy, feeding them corp projects to fill up, and getting taxes. It’s a nice scheme to keep your war related risks at today’s level, while creating income.

Is my proposal better ? It involves blowing up stuff, interrupting stuff and, most of all, it makes you who are in the business of wardec’ing take war related decisions and bear consequences.

It seems to me, and perhaps a few others as well, that your ambitions for HS are ill suited to HS. Perhaps you should move elsewhere on the map, somewhere between .4 and -1.0 sec space, and see if your level of decision making is okay there.

I fully support your “right to wardec in hisec”, but not at the expense of just everyone. I don’t support your suggestion to embed HS power play even deeper. That type of business model - the random wardec spam - has been going on unchallenged for far too long. It undoubtedly contributes to the current state of HS, and you overplay your hand.

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It is not ambition, they effectively did it.

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Just like the TTC effectively did their stuff. CCP finally woke up, opened up a surprisingly simple and minimalistic way for players to deal with it, and we did. Goodbye TTT …
That’s what has to happen with strangleholds, they need challenging, not silver platters.

It has been like this effectively for the last ten years and CCP is clueless about it.

Dunno about clueless, but obviously not a top priority. They’re more than capable to address it, just like they showed with the changes to FW. What makes CCP wake up ? How does one create traction for an idea ? How to circumvent the NIH syndrome ?
:grin:

The war suggestion I made had an eye on this, I wanted to weaken the largest war deccers, by limiting them to ten concurrent wars max with a war dec HQ was weakening them, I was enabling small war decs so that would also weaken them. That they then create shell corps and war dec with those is fine, because that weakens them, that is a lot of shell corps, why did you think I added restrictions to movement with wars and the like to characters?

CCP is clueless because what I suggested is actually rather easy to do, the only hard part is enabling true ally play, but I have to say that is critical, in part the cap on war decs was to make this not cause issues with complexity.

Anyway good that he posted his thoughts here and exposed the situation, I respect him for that.

I know that’s what you tried to do. The part of it that was undigestable was the (lack of) structure requirements, which got the two of us into a debate. And I still don’t believe that splintering up wardec’rs would achieve anything different than what they are capable of doing today.

You know, it would be interesting to start the brainstorm afresh, you starting from your own (or current) insights, me with my skyhook-like idea (which essentially creates a different way to actively deal with wardec’rs), and see how we can morph both into one idea. It would be interesting, but also ill-advised. It’s a lot harder to motivate a game designer with an already worked out “solution” than with the merest of hints that he/she can run with and own.

Yes, same, he was truthful about his intentions.

I am lurking in NPC nullsec, I don’t really feel like I want to go to nullsec having done that before, though it is pretty good when you are in a dominant alliance like I was with Tactical Supremacy. I am aware of skyhooks and the new sov system, but I also know that it turned into a complete mess and had to be adjusted and that was not enough too. Many alliances are holding off on it.

I have an intel channel for the area of sov and at one point people were reporting when skyhooks got robbed, but it was so frequent that they don’t even bother anymore, it was also happening in the TZ when no one was on. I think the skyhook and new sov systems have made the entire sov turn into big alliances only, and if you are limited to one TZ, you are completely screwed. So with that in mind I did not look at what you wrote, as it was a turn off, sorry, so I went back and looked.

I must admit to being a bit fed up with structures, my biggest annoyance is that these new moon drills, they are now being dropped all over the place and PvP groups have blue agreements not to shoot each others. And the people that had Athanors and were actively mining them are seeing those so easy to kill Athanors removed and these passive ones put in their place. And no one is shooting them. For the small guys this comparison says it all:

Metenox Moon drill - Shield 1m HP, Armour 1m HP, Structure 24m HP ???
Athanor - Shield 2.4m HP, Armour 1.2m HP, structure 1.2m HP

20 times the amount of structure HP, and you give that to the best PvP groups, as I said CCP are clueless, that was why in desperation I asked for the siphon to be enabled on Metenox drills, in features and ideas. Not that I do any moon mining of course, but others do… Anyway, I better stop as I am likely to get annoyed enough to not renew my sub if I keep thinking about this. But I think putting passive moon mining back in the game is an absolute disaster…, but to make them as strong as that, shows a level of cluelessness that is awe inspiring!

So to take that into account, I think if we are to use structures in any sense and in the past I had suggested observatory’s that enable a war in a system, a constellation or a region, but I said that they had to be vulnerable all the time and really easy to blow up, so people would try to do it and aggressors had to defend them. I like having a vulnerability for war deccers, so perhaps pushing that system instead would be a lot better.

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Taking this in a slightly different direction… Assuming the current war dec mechanic is working as intended, the problem may be the lack of available structures to generate wars.

If this is indeed the case, then the question begs to be asked is why more groups don’t throw up structures? And the answer is that they’re cost-prohibitive to operate outside of industry.

So citadels really need to offer something beyond a potential “loot pinata”. Some ideas:

  • Having a citadel negates the player component of POCO taxes in that system for the owning corporation of the citadel (so NPC tax only)
  • Having a citadel (only) affords bonuses to NPC bounties and LP for the owning corporation (25% for medium, 50% for large)
  • Having a citadel (only) grants a warp speed bonus to players of the owning corporation for that system (25% medium, 50% large)
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I have seen this suggested quite a few times, but in reality would you throw up a structure worth 2.4bn if fitted for those bonuses, I would not, the idea in itself is fine, but perhaps something a bit cheaper and easier for these bonuses that enabled war decs.

Most definitely. There has to be an incentive for smaller groups to deploy a structure. Right now, there just isn’t one. And they’re not exactly formidable in terms of defensive capabilities…

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I could do any of the Bullcrap stuff you are accusing me of or putting into my mouth…

Effectively I have already done it, you are too ignorant about HS to even try to understand what im even talking about or proposing.

This what my proposal is about, providing that same level of headache to Leadership of HS groups.

what consequences? your proposal does nothing versus stagnation…the status quo for anything will not change one iota.

You are a nullsecr and really ignorant about HS, i fail to understand how my proposal cutting deep into and against the ability for “random wardecs” is overplaying my hand.

I am an EvE player…
This means I am a:
Miner
Researcher
Inventor
Ganker
Manufacturer
Hauler
CEO
Alliance Leader
Mission Runner
Anom/Cosmic Sig Runner
Diplomat
Political Analyst
Market Trader
Information Broker

As to HS, I have always lived in HS without ever leaving it. My first 3 yrs i was a career ganker, never did industry till my 4th yr. or touched mining laser till then as well.

In fact the group I was with, is where Currin Trading(aka James 315) got his ideas for CODE and his Halaima Code of Conduct. His beginning paragraphs, each of them were the same exact charter rules of the group I was in…with walls of China text instead a simple sentence.

My proposal, is to drive a wedge between HS and Nullsec…i do not really see them amassing Charters to get involved in HS the way i propose for changes…i could be wrong…but if they dont…good they can stay on their side of the map and out of HS.

But if they want a permanent or semi-permanent presence in HS, then im saying they and anyone else in Leadership roles must put in serious effort to create any sort of Bloc control as we see it happening already in HS.

i decided to view your hidden reply.

You are incorrect Drac,

For me and Khromius or at least some of the BF guys we have a love/hate relationship…I love poking them, and they really really really HATE dealing with me…

Forget the first name, but last name as Friar i think…they sent her/him once…not after me…but after one of my alliance mates…think they hit a freighter…a gank…not enough to take one of my orcas…but the threatened me, sent me many mails…but did not try to strike at me…i wonder why?

These guys tried to wardec me before struct req was needed…we used alts for hauling, and trading in jita…Vendetta got really pissed when we provided proof that they were buying some of their stuff from us every week…while visiting and blah blahing in local about us being docked up.

My corp and others I have been involved with have fought Vendetta/Blackflag off and on for a decade…we even had the PoCo’s, over 400 of them reinforced at one time and laughed at VMG’s fleet trying to slowboat across HS to catch us…while Public Enemy, and PIRAT at that time basically quit the game.

What have i seen since then…
Players that want to play the game and do so…ive taught quite a few the proper basics.
More importantly I have seen droves in the thousands in the past 6 yrs or so that dont want to play the game…they want to AFK, they want to bot, they want someone to hold their hand or ride on that persons coat tails…

I am not superior, I have simply played longer and more aggressivley and more properly than most of those in that category.

I am not bored, however to any casual this is my response to wanting certain content, to wanting the PLEX offer i make, the better than Jita pay for ore that i do…

and that msg is: TiT for TaT, what you are going to do for the corp, the alliance, for me that makes it worth my time or assets to be given to you?

almost all of them respond in the gist of: nothing cause you owe me.

I dont owe anyone crap, for years BF has run rampant in HS…for years outside a snuff up here or there…the group i ran or the groups i was allied with were the only ones in BF’s face for weeks or months at a time…

I remember ppl being on reddit or this forum complaining for someone to do something about them… and @Natural_CloneKiller had it right or Tor Bushido, or Murdoch Luther when they laughed on those threads…

Stop whining and asking for ppl to do something for you…we(the groups i was part of) stood up, and we did things… I was single handedly, or my Corp DST was the manufacturing backbone and BF despised me for it.

But im not bored, my proposal does not need to be implemented…any of it…but the dozens and hundreds of different players i come across every day, even now…

Are they going to stop being lazy, afk, garbage want to play single player games players? And do something? have the desire to do something? my 1st CEO in this game asked me “what do you want to do?” my answer: Be an Arms dealer…well guess what I am an Arms dealer…T1 destroyers cost me less then 60k to build, Freighters/Orca hell even rorqs cost me less than 500 million ISK to build from scratch…

I just do not have the energy or the inclination to give my assets or my knowledge to someone that doesnt give a damm about doing anything other than existing then cries when a Catalyst slams into their retriever without mercy or reprieve.

Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head again in my most humble opinion.

What I proposed was aimed at letting pilots like yourself make the decision to enter the fray, and so far it looks positive.

Hopefully we will get the designers to have a give/take approach to these sorts of issues, most of the current ideas here only give further options to the war-deccer without rewarding the npc/mission runner type of player. Lets just keep it oldskool Eve online…if folks really want everyone to get structures then reward them!!

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And with reason. It’s fair to say that all large groups are holding off on the most drastic changes until November, especially for the jump bridges and cynos. And they all hope that by then CCP will have tweaked the numbers into a more balanced system.

All your points are valid ones. The nullsec skyhook system is in its infancy. The non-existing one I am referring to for the purposes of this thread is just that: non-existent, and nothing like what nullsec has. Its purpose however is indeed some kind of active (read: direct) counterplay against wardec’rs (especially spammers) as you correctly concluded. How, to what degree, etc. is, like I wrote higher up in the thread, completely up to the designer and in function of what ccp wants to achieve for that aspect of hisec gameplay. At this point the glass is neither half full nor half empty :slight_smile: It’s a glass.

It seems to take (npc and non-npc) nullbrains (as Max calls nullsec’rs) to come to that idea, haha. I appreciate it !

You really think so ? Or maybe you don’t see the potential of your own suggestion, how it would morph into -exactly- what I’m “accusing” you of or “putting into your mouth”. And that’s by taking your words at face value, no imagination or spinning necessary, no “debate games”.

It’s of a different level. The changes nullsec goes through involve every single game aspect. That is not even remotely what I suggest for changes to a wardec mechanism.

that in my suggestion / example / idea any wardec’r is more exposed to countering activities that can disrupt certain wardec abilities or levels thereof.

And running missions to get LP to buy starbase charters will ? Anyone can do that NOW, without a wardec’ing CEO. It doesn’t offer anyone anything except some sort of corporate moral obligation, but not motivation.

Now it’s your turn to pay close attention:

That approach only works in areas of the map that are valuable, where the reward is higher, where there is something of value that allows people to progress and improve their characters and their gameplay, where players want to be and are willing to toss in a bit of effort to keep that access, or in other words, where people create their own motivation. It’s an illusion that you can do that in hisec space, it’s simply the wrong part of the map.

IF there is stagnation in hisec, perhaps it’s only because people and dynamic groups find out for themselves that it’s more preferable to be anywhere else on the map but in hisec… especially when wardec’ing is not to their taste.

Perhaps I’m ignorant, I certainly lack your personal perspective. But … see previous paragraph. It does nothing to curtail wardec spam when I, a nullbrain without specialistic knowledge about one typical hisec aspect, can already see the easy escape route.

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This - or we simply need to attract a lot more players to the game. But since the player count has been somewhat stagnant over the past few years, I’m not optimistic that there’s any kind of “magic bullet” to address this.

We may need to recognise what Eve actually is, it’s a long drawn out game that takes considerable effort and time which no amount of mechanics changes will ever resolve. I went to fix a PC the other day and met a mother and daughter who was asking me about Eve online, I was shocked as I didn’t think they would care for a game like Eve. I told them honestly about how immersive it was and what a good community it has and I also told them if you log off for a few days you could log back on to find everything you built gone,

The gaming world is very much aware of Eve online and many of us would be surprised at the types of people interested in playing.

Personally I think the game has reached some stagnation due to most players simply growing up or changes in their life, the honest truth is some players who genuinely love Eve may not have time to maintain constant war decs where a gate camp for 3 hours might be needed for example. There needs to be a level of acceptance that some may not even have time to fully complete a level 4 mission so keeping such a player camped in due to war dec constantly may put them off the game.

Eve once had a 24 hour battle as you know, immediatly we can see that no parent could be involved as it’s just far too long to spend in a game.

I think we just need to take a step back and consider these things before we start getting annoyed with mechanics and their designers, within the gaming world there are many types of player where it would be difficult to design something where everybody is happy with and has the time to play.

So a change back to war-dec anyone even with limitations or other technical aspects will definitely alienate the remaining “i’ve only got 30 minutes” type of player.

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“War? Not tonight, I have to put the kids to bed. Can we resume this tomorrow?”

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Humor aside, I think War Decs could be adjusted to work under a slightly different set of conditions:

• No War Decs against any corporation less than 90 days old.
• No War Decs against any corporation with less than 10 players.
• Structure required to issue a War Dec.

Pros/cons?