A brief history of Eve’s decline from the Eyes of a criminal

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
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I don’t really believe this. Competitive games featuring ganking and scamming and other competetive behavior dominate the Steam charts. Survival games even more hardcore than Eve when it comes to loss are still immensely popular. There is definitely a market for competitive, open-world, full-loot PvP games among today’s gamers.

I think the problem is more along the lines Mo’ set out: there is no place for accessible, newbro-friendly PvP. Both highsec safety creep, and general power creep, made it less easy for PvP to happen or happen around newer players. Not only did that drive players some players by making content creation too tedious, or too serious, and it also likely bored a cadre of players away who never saw anything interesting happen around them their first weeks in the game.

I agree with this completely: there is no going back. But I do believe Eve isn’t going to see growth rates like before unless the problems Mo’ witnessed are addressed. Until new players are placed in a starting area where not only interesting player-driven things are happening around them, but interesting things they can participate in, Eve is going to have the same atrocious retention rate.

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Which ones?

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Rust and Ark are the most hardcore that come to mind, but also the whole class of Battle Royale games where sides aren’t balanced. Most of the top games are competitive PvP games, and a significant fraction aren’t especially balanced.

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Can the CSM also put more pressure on CCP to take a look at overhauling the old PvE systems in general?

Obviously, it is not an easy task and requires probably many iterations. I know there have been some few mentions of how they wish to overhaul it, but nothing specific.

Even if they just take some small part to begin with and start changing some of it, it will give the community some confidence that they are actually trying to overhaul the systems.

I believe the major culprit for low player retention is the PvE system. After the tutorial and career missions (which are still horrible), I think real newbies will keep mining or missioning. Missions or mining are not engaging gameplay mechanics. While I don’t have the data to backup my claim (I only have anecdotal evidence), I’m sure CCP can at least through their internal data check how engaging the PvE is for newer players.

I still believe that most people stay for the PvP, so getting PvP better representation in the NPE would be great. However, if people don’t even get to the PvP because they drop the game after the initial contact with grinding missions, then I believe this should be of much higher priority to fix, than what it seems to be.

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They’ve added a lot of new PvE opportunities (Abyss, for instance), and I’ve asked for a new PVE missions, but apparently adding new missions is extremely difficult because the mission system is one of the oldest legacy systems and adding stuff is not easy.

I don’t think PvE is what most folks who are attracted to EVE come to the game for, so I think, if anything, the PvE is basically a something-to-do for a lot of players. I have a really hard time getting inside the head of folks who literally only play EVE for the PvE.

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I’m not talking about adding new stuff. I’m talking about rehauling the existing systems. So that old missioning legacy system, would be in my opinion a much bigger priority to fix, than for example the introduction of abyss space.

As I’ve said in my initial post in this thread. I also believe people play eve because of the PvP aspect. However, set yourself in the shoes of a complete newbie. You have no prior knowledge of how the game works. You get into the game and do the tutorial, you then do the career agent missions, since those are what are next in the agency. From my own anecdotal evidence, the most natural move would be to continue to find missions or maybe do mining. However, I’m sure CCP could do a data analysis of what are the activities of players after doing the initial NPE.

So new players need to start getting some isk somewhere, right? One needs ISK to actually buy ships to blow up. But if they are quitting the game after a few days of grinding missions, cause all their prejudice about eve being boring or how it’s “spreadsheets in space” are confirmed, then you can see why I think rehauling these experiences should have so much higher priority.

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It’s basically the same thing - they would have to overhaul the systems to add anything new, and there’s just not a lot of bang for the buck there.

What I want to see, as I noted, if more PvP orientation in the NPE. Get folks to that quicker.

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Do you know there is not a lot of bang for the buck here? If boring missions are the main reason for low player retention, then I’d say there definitely is some to gain here. Maybe at least have CCP do some investigation on how the old PvE system are affecting newer players? Like check what activities new players pick after doing the NPE, then check retention rates and see if any trends can be spotted?

Again, PvP in NPE is great and all. But a total newbie have no experience, funds or skills. They are going to do some initial PvE just to at least get some isk for ship replacements. If they then drop the game, cause they can’t be bothered with the grind cause of its boredom, I can hardly see this to be an issue to be brushed away.

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That’s a pretty big “if” and I don’t think it’s one that’s backed up by any evidence.

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In my experience, it’s really not that big an “if”. But I have acknowledged that I don’t have enough data, cause obviously I don’t have access to the data CCP has. Which is why I said in the above post, that maybe at least pressure CCP to investigate the effect of the old mission system.

I am slightly surprised that you see no issues with the old missions and see an overhaul of it result in small gains. You yourself mention, that you don’t understand people who PvE. You refer to PvE as “something-to-do”, ergo not something to be enjoyed. If this is what new players experience (let me remind you, players that have no experience with eve nor know why this game is loved by so many others), then I hope you can see where my worries are.

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Brisc has always admitted that the PvE part of EVE baffles him somewhat. CCP also seems to follow that trend as well, stating things are “good enough” as is or only adding PvE content that they feel encourages the player into a more PvP trajectory. When both those people who design and help oversee a project are unable to understand your opinions, well, then your concepts are unlikely to be achieved. Their recent event results further underlines the idea that making new PvE content may be just too hard for them atm.
My idea for more structured PvP content in the NPE combined with more structured PvP content support right after the NPE sees to resonate with a lot of players. I think it would offer a good return for the development assets spent; helping guide future players toward choosing options more compatible with game’s original intent. However, there remains a core group of players adamant in focusing in PvE activities and CCP’s tenacious inability to really understand their point of view will continue to lead to a slow bleed of long term players. Hopefully, the inflow of newer ones will result in a net gain…but the implementation of any change will have to reach a much more polished and balanced level than the material CCP is currently putting out. I think they can do it, but it’s getting harder to keep any optimism alive these days.

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Brisc,
First, thanks for taking the time to acknowledge this tired old pvp’er. I’ve never had acknowledgement from your team or CCP before (at least not in a positive light).

I don’t swat people. I don’t disrespect people. I don’t abuse people. I never have. I specialize in a T1 frigate with t2 fittings… and fly it at the dangerous edge of what the mechanics allow.

I was part of a community that did police our own and my team didn’t allow abusive behavior. Though I know some do. I would argue that abuse is separate from PvP.

How is abuse in PvP really different than the abuse that is delivered by pve corps? Abuse is abuse. If I do it, a person loses a ship. If a pve guy does it, someone just gets treated bad and loses playtime.

Akiainavas was a profession system full of life, and emotion, and drama, and plotting. It was interesting in its own right. That is the product people come to see.

If we don’t deiver, they’ll keep bypassing us. The pve is a side dish. It doesn’t make the news papers or tabloids. The noobs don’t come to eve for safety, they may not want to fight, but a consensual PvP mechanic (like can flipping in its ability to communicate an injury and retribution) gives them to ability to encounter real drama, real fights, and real consequences.

That’s why they’re here. If we don’t deliver, they’ll keep quitting.

There has never been a lower shipped casual cadre to handle noob relations than the guys who played in the profession systems. We flew ibises if that’s what they wanted to fight.

And they had fun. They fought, lost ships, learned stuff, and engaged in discussions and plots. It was amazing. It was interactive. It was a wonderful community.

Or we can deliver pve and keep getting these results.

The stereotype of what we are is deeply different than what we ever were.

And no, I’m not asking for 2011 back. I submitted several ideas on the idea board for accessible PvP options that aren’t obligated to yield farmable isk so as to be overrun with bots.

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Bad apples always screw the whole basket when it comes to people like us :confused:

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But if you’re an apple farmer, a bad apple or two doesn’t make it a good idea to burn the farm.

The PvP in The profession systems, specifically, was as accessible and casual as has existed in Eve… ever.

There were no gate guns and if you baited, no chance of a blob.

Noobs could get limited engagements with only a 15 minute window of fighting against a known ship size. It was perfect for them… and there were dozens of players in system to teach, help, abuse, etc… and make a dramatic event of it.

Why protect them from that… most of them loved it. I logged in to an attentive audience of pupils daily who wanted to learn and have fun.

And it was a madhouse. I couldn’t get enough, and neither could they. Can anyone say that now?

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That’s not what I said. What I said was that I’ve asked for new missions and have essentially been told that overhauling the mission system would be extremely difficult, as I noted. I will keep asking, but I don’t expect them to change their answer on that.

For me, and for most of the folks I play with, PvE is something you do between PvP fights or things you do in order to make money to PvP with. Nobody plays the game solely for the PvE because it’s just not that engaging compared to other games.

So that’s why I get annoyed that the NPE is so focused on PvE, when that’s not what drew most folks in the game and is acknowledged by most folks as not being the greatest PvE in MMOs. I want folks to get into PvP faster, since that’s often what drew them here in the first place, and that would require changing up the focus of the NPE.

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CCP never understood to what point people was giving them money for the PvE, but the bitter reality is catching up their delusions. PvP money will not save EVE Online.

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I agree with all of that, and that’s what drew me to the game originally as well.

At the same time, you’ll see thousands of posts in these forums bitching about ganking, bumping, scamming, awoxing - all the kinds of stuff that have been bread and butter EVE since the beginning, and helped to make the game different. Many times these are coming from new players who aren’t aware of the history. Even today I had an alliance mate ask me what he could do via the GMs to get back isk he was scammed out of. I had to tell him that scamming was okay.

Folks just aren’t used to that anymore.

At the same time, there’s plenty of PvP in the game, if you know where to look for it, and that’s the problem. Folks start in highsec, and highsec PvP is very specialized. Breaking into that is tough for new players, as you noted. Too many folks these days think all non-consensual PvP = griefing, and that’s bad, especially for a game like ours where that’s what we were founded on essentially.

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I understand and respect all sides of this lively discussion, and would like to add my 2isk to the mix- As a new player, I’ve spent some time getting acclimated to the forums and the trending issues in the community.

I see a pattern of discussion about how EVE is in decline, how PvP is dying, and how there is no hope for change or improvement from the developers….

Understanding that I am new to the community and have little personal connection to the historical context beyond that which i have read about here and in other threads… i am left with the following questions when I contemplate the “problems” as identified by those concerned about the trajectory of the game-

given that game dev is mostly out of our hands as players, and that for the foreseeable future the Security System is unlikely to change too much, and we ALL want to keep playing the game (this is my assumption as to why so many players are still here expressing their concerns instead of off subscribing to another game) why don’t we all focus on creative “in-the-Sand-Box” ideas to help evolve the “in-game culture”? We may not see change in the Game Mechanics any time soon… but EVE is still a MASSIVE SandBox with plenty of freedom to create our own “action”

What kind of player driven activities can the community create that would innovate and be different than what is already routinely on offer? What kind of player hosted activities can we organize that would promote fresh new PvP action?

What kind of grass roots movement can the community organize to help encourage all the newer players to get out to the fringe and find some fights?

I recently noticed that there is a simple Dual Invitation system that seems to be allowed in HighSec…. I have not looked up the actual game mechanics on it, but I have received more than one Duel Invitation in 1.0 space, which I had to decline because I was busy mining. But- I am full of questions about how the community might be able to utilize this simple device in new and inventive ways???

I am not lacking suggestions or examples either! But I have busy day ahead of me, and I wanted to invite suggestions from others first.

I have always been interested in stirring the player base into more interactive and self created “content” in every online game I have played, and so I am sure that I will be posting more about this sort of thing in the future… in fact, just before sitting down to reply to this thread, I was considering creating a new topic over in the PvP discussion section asking these some kinds of questions… I may very well adapt this comment to become that Topic later on.

Despite the clear and very real challenges being faced by the EVE player community, I also see that the community is brimming with creativity and passion for this game. I did not join up and subscribe for a year just to sit around and watch the player base slowly dwindle. I am here to get involved and help shake things up. I may be crazy… but I genuinely think that there is a LOT more that we can do as players to keep this game fun and interesting and to inspire new players to stick around and bring their friends with them.

Let’s start a Culture Change, one in which we players creatively shift our focus from complaining about how the game fails, and instead- collectively focus on how we can create success for all players within the boundaries of the game!!!

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Let me just emphasize, that I’m not asking for more missions. As I said, the old missioning system is boring as it is. If it was up to me, then the old system should just be removed and isk generation should be incorporated into the PvP sandbox. For example, elevate destruction so the amount of industrialists required to satisfy that demand increases. Making industry a viable isk generation for a newbie. This is just an example I came up with on the spot, so not really thought through. However, my focus would still be on improving the PvP sandbox and the ability to solely play through that aspect of the game.

However, I don’t expect it to be realistic for CCP to just abandon such a large part of their game. So I can only ask to consider the NPE within the context of this system.

You and me, seasoned eve players, know that the PvE is just means to an end. We do it to support our PvP activities. We don’t necessarily enjoy it, but we do it anyway cause we gotta have ISK. Now consider a newbie, just starting to play eve. They have no idea what a thrill PvP is. They very likely won’t touch PvP for some time, since they’ve been conditioned from other games, that ship losses is equal to losing. So what they do is they often end up grinding missions through that old outdated system. Again, this is what they’ve been conditioned to do from other games. They see some damsel in distress with an exclamation mark over her head, it feels natural for them to keep grinding those missions. I think you can agree that those missions are not enjoyable. Again, we know the PvE is just for us to endure, so we can get to the fun part. A complete newbie might not understand this nor feel invested enough in eve, so they just quit.

I personally feel that the old missioning system is contributing a lot to the low player retention rate. I might be wrong, since I can’t realistically do any proper analysis. What I’m really asking CCP, is to take a look at all the systems they have in eve. Take a look at how and why players play eve. Figure out what direction they want to take eve and finally commit to that development path until the game is in a healthy state.

Is eve a PvP sandbox? Then make systems that improve these aspects of the game.
Do they want to make eve a PvE game? Then make actual good PvE content.

As a mere player, I only get whatever information CCP expose through their public channels. I’m not in the CSM, who may have been disclosed some optimistic plans for the future. From my standpoint, these past years and the future seems rather grim. We all just want a better game, cause eve has been part of our lives for some years now.

Maybe a rework of the NPE is enough, but the NPE has been reworked 2 times now (at least in the time I’ve played). It is disheartening that CCP still don’t understand that the NPE needs to contain some form of reconditioning of behavior learned from other themepark MMOs and proper explanation of what eve really is/contains.

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Me too, but unfortunately this is a legacy system and there’s no way around it as far as I can tell.

That’s why it needs to be something they’re introduced to in the first place, likely through the NPE.

They do this all the time, and they’re doing this as we speak. Trust me, player retention is always a top priority, especially in a game this old.

Folks have been saying EVE is dying since 2003. The reality is that the game is what we make it, and if we sit around waiting for CCP to fix the game and make it the best thing ever, we’re going to all die of old age. The game is, and always will be, what we as players make of it and we can’t expect CCP to create reasons for people to play the game. That’s the inherent sandbox nature of it - you set your own goals and decide what you want. That’s the one thing that folks playing the game need to deprogram from other MMOs. Nobody’s going to hold your hand from one area to the next in EVE.

That’s extremely difficult to do because so many games are built that way and folks new to EVE likely expect that. The NPE is the best way to disabuse people of that notion, but it’s gotta have PvP in it.