A brief history of Eve’s decline from the Eyes of a criminal

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
41

This may be ironic to hear from someone who was dubbed a griefer for years, but here it is.

Highsec wardecs have been absolute crap for years. Hunting died with the watchlist. It’s literally the functional equivalent of pulling a guard shift on the pipeline. No, nobody should like them, least of all noobs.

Compound that with the prevalence of the super ships which, despite many of them having noob attainable SP requirements, violate the first rule of Eve for noobs (don’t fly it if you can’t afford to lose it). To a noob, a T3 or pirate faction boat is a brick wall.

And now, that’s all going to come to an end because all that is left of wardecs is structure bashing. Sign me up for that riveting activity!

No, this PvP isn’t accessible to anyone. It’s not even fun.

Then we have ganking. Literally, it’s impossible to truly injure someone who intends to dispose of his ship and who will then self destruct the pod for convenience. The closest you can get to a win is surviving… which probably doesn’t feel like an amazing victory.

No, you cannot truly beat a ganker.

So I’m going to agree with the noobs, they don’t stay long enough to see outside highsec and what they can see isn’t really fun and winning isn’t attainable. I keep quitting because I can’t deal with it… I can get it why they don’t.

I think to say people have changed is incorrect. I think the way we present the game has changed and that has changed the expectations of people joining the game. If we presented the game as a hardcore universe of strife and conflict where you will get ships shot out from under you on a regular basis… that will attract a different player base than a cool social space game wheee friends chat while mining… but even the same person will perceive PvP differently for no other reason than because the expectations were different.

We could just manage those expectations to where they will expect fights… and let the games begin.

I would like to see some PvP options that put a pirate/criminal feel back into the game. Can flipping was fantastic, maybe we could downsize the isk or ship size for Corp aggro so we can have a limited version of that (Corp aggro on ships under 10 mil or maybe if you steal a small enough quantity of isk).

I’d like to see smuggling options where it’s pvp, but maybe with rewards from the faction. Maybe some kind of blockade running or some such… but PvP.

Accessible PvP for newer players in high sec is going to look a lot like the griefing of 2011 in that lots of small ships will get wrecked. Some by older players, some by new.

Ideally, there will be a grievance system by which a player can steal or otherwise pick a fight that also creates a story.

We need to set expectations that you will lose ships, that you will commit crimes, that you will punish criminals, and ultimately that you will fight.

Let’s not protect noobs from that part of the game either (it’s the only part of the game that is fascinating for years), let’s make them try it in the profession systems so that they see the brilliance that Eve is (or used to be).

Can flipping was the most engaging and sophisticated game activity I have ever encountered. If we show it, in its glory, to the gaming world it will draw crowds.

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42

If that is what they do, then their intents are not properly projected to their playerbase.

I know eve has been dying since 2003. Player sentiment has however been quite low recently across both the forums and reddit. It is not a surprise given chat issues, cap proliferation, bots and now cancellation of AT.

I’m just saying CCP can do better.

43

Another point that needs to be made.

If the core gameplay of Eve is PvP. And if the core gameplay mechanic is highsec, which is where the vast majority of playtime occurs…

Then CCP has been deleting and nerfing the core gameplay functions of the game since 2011 when they kicked PvP out of the profession systems, then made war so expensive it requires a sponsor, then made can flipping too arduous to pursue, then dumped the watchlist, and now have made it to where wars are bypassed… so you can only shoot structures.

There is an old adage that “the best way to destroy your enemy is to make him your friend”.

The best way to prevent ganking, which isn’t good gameplay in my opinion… would be to supply PvP mechanics that are more fun.

The best way to stop wars from being toxic is to provide non-toxic activities that are now fun.

Providing a more-fun alternative to the thing you want to stop is a viable way to approach a countermeasure against gameplay that has drawbacks.

No, wormholes won’t replace can flipping… and they’ll never be more fun. But rather than nerf it to uselessness, they could have given us a mechanic that still allowed for theft and self-deliver of justice to occur (they could create a threshold to apply crimewatch, forcing us to fly “accessible” PvP ships if we don’t want to trigger crimewatch… or forcing us to steal small quantities to nerf the theft thing if that’s what was bad.

They’ve literally removed everything I liked from the game with the exception of the space motif. And I was hooked so hard by the core gameplay that I’m whining about it a decade later on the forums, begging them to bring the old mechanics back (or something new that’s as fun).

And in return, I’ve got mining that is now 80% more afk. I’ve got half a dozen new ways to spend massive isk on fancy ships that I consider too costly for seriously risky flying, and I’ve got more pve options against NPCs which I can’t really see differentiation between

I’ve never done that for any other game developer. Imagine the loyalty…

44

Oh, and expectations management.

Meeting expectations is how we prevent negative reactions at the hardness of Eve.

Suppose during the installation, I showed you pictures of 16 ships and made you pick your favorite.

Then, for the rest of the installation process, I made you watch laughing assailants attack that ship and destroy it over and over before saying “welcome to eve”.

How would a player base with that little conditioning experiment view the game differently? It would be funny, it would be joked about… but it would be valuable for setting expectations that you will lose ships to laughing assailants and that you should expect that as a core gameplay mechanic.

A little conditioning would go a long way in preparing people for a “differentiated” mmo experience.

Seems reasonable to me.

45

People were expecting a magnificent space opera, and in the game they were meet by griefing by old players, and normally this is the result …

46

Griefing, meanness, intrigue and war are the staples of a good opera.

The problem isn’t that the senior players are mean, it’s that you’re not able to compete because we’ve destroyed the basis of small and cheap fighting mechanics.

Meeting the Marmites on the pipeline… not good for young players.

Dealing with ganks… not as interactive as it needs to be.

I’m proposing that we retain all those dramatic elements, but re-work the mechanics to compel fights to ship-down until they’re beatable in ships new players can afford.

  1. the meanness and squabbles will give us meaningful fights
  2. the compulsion (typically by leaving the final decision to aggress in the hands of the defender you compel the aggressor to fly weak ships to inspire confidence in his opponents) of senior players to fly cheap ships brings balance and capable competition.

Then we have something exciting, meaningful, and engaging.

Yes, we need grief. It implies the meaning, emotion, and engagement that makes Eve great.

Vivid emotions for the win.

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47

You can’t look at reddit for a true state of player sentiment. Reddit thrives on conflict and complaining, and for every one “hey, this is pretty good” you’ll see two dozen threads bitching about something. Right now they’re doing the monthly two-minute CSM hate.

I think the active player count is the best way to look at how the player base actually is it’s been fairly stable. It’s down from the spike after Alphas came out, but it’s been pretty steady for the last year or two as far as I can recall.

Cap proliferation is something folks complain about even though they’ve all got caps. The AT being cancelled this year is simply a result of the community team doing a ton of regional events instead of one Fanfest and that’s sucking up their time. They’re trying to do something different and the AT got put on hiatus for a year. Given the drop in participation and the low viewership of last year’s tourney, I am looking forward to them coming up with something different that hopefully gets folks more involved in it.

Sure, CCP can do better. We tell them that all the time. But it’s not as bad as it looks from seeing folks ree-ing on reddit and the forums.

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48

Fine, I’ll take the player base/server count as a method on the game’s health, BUT…

I’d argue that any raw count after the introduction of Alpha accounts and the explosion of bot use for EVERY aspect of EVE is really meaningless. You get CCP to tell us what the numbers are that are Omega and actually people (not bots RMTing their way to riches) and we’ll have that discussion.

Until then, the Guardian’s Gala fiasco speaks volumes on the current state of the game.

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49

There have always been bots. If they had an easy way of identifying bots from actual players, there’d be no bots.

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50

Well, you can start with those people running sites 23/7 for months: heck how about more than 14 hours a day for weeks on end. Market bots autocorrecting 24/7 within 5 seconds. Distribution ships running for 23 hours a day for weeks. There is plenty of low hanging fruit out there that is well documented by videos and reports.

…and at least you could have the split of Omega to Alpha pilots readily available to CCP with their new data mining abilities. Course, I’m sure everything is just peaches there. So lobbyist and spin doctor is now the same thing? Throw in used car salesman and Mr. Haney, too it appears. While I appreciate your willingness to stand up and be at least a face on these forums (and something that CCP has recently appeared to have forgotten about), there’s only so much “rainbows and lollipops” attitude we can stomach.

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51

They’re already doing all of that.

I’m not trying to be unicorns and rainbows or spinning anything. I just don’t have the same inherent cynicism.

52

For what it’s worth, I’ve enjoyed the chance to hear your perspective. I’ve never conversed with a member of the CSM.

I don’t know if you agree with much of what I said or not, but I got a chance to say my piece.

…and say it I did. I would like my words to make a difference, but such power is not mine to wield.

I’ll just hope my crime-think has infected your brain.

I owe you thanks for your attention and your civil discourse.

53

That’s what I’m here for. I like talking to folks, especially folks who do different stuff than what I do. I try to read everything, and it definitely always has an impact.

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54

Talk them into opening a 1 month test in Akiainavas. I’ll even do it suspect, and I’ll see if I can find people who are willing to throw away ships to recreate the old madhouse…

I’m sure I could scare up a few people from the old days who are willing to help me put on the show.

55

You do it the old fashion way (low cost to both parties,don’t rub in the loss, aid in improving the loser’s game) and you have my (and many others )support! Just hope you can gather a group of like minded people with you and the less desirable crowd stays away. Good luck!!

56

It never mattered, if douchebags showed up we would end up squaring off against them or using a noob to kill them (I always kept an Onieros in station).

In fact, those were the best fights because you felt accomplished when you unhorsed them. Good content!

I pushed more than one noob through a pvp’er with reps because it was fun.

In fact, I got a shoutout on the forums one time from some boys in Yoink (or Tears, can’t rmemeber) for pushing a raven through a 4 person fleet of theirs with reps. It was before I could fly T2 reps, I think it took 3 or 4 new pvp’ers with Ospreys).

The raven pilot loved it.

If real enemies didn’t show up, we were the good guys, bad guys, stupid guys, etc…

It was content, and it was fun.

We were picking fights 24/7. And it was amazing.

If I could get that level of numbnuttery going again I know the impact it had. Protection of noobs came at a horrible cost for all of us… noobs included.

And man, did we have some stories.

57

If you want to learn, or know people who do, I also teach.

58

So much this. Reddit or Twitter as any sort of real litmus test… :laughing:

59

you are really falling for that falcons hoax ???

60

Eve didn’t get famous for its pve…

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