How I feel about EVE right now

Over at reddit CCP Convict did his job by asked the communtiy how we feel about EVE right now. You can find the thread here:

It is telling that he didn’t went to the official EVE Online forums first. The problem with censorship is that if the censored can move elsewhere you lose any control over the discussion. It’s nice that you lot want to play with us again. You may find that prior to joining a player corp you have to talk to players. I’m inviting all of CCP Games to get some practice right here. So, how do you feel about the game CCP Convict?

EVE got a big spot in my heart so I wont wait for an answer. In fact I believe that in a sandbox game it’s my resposibility as a player to create content. I hope the following post is less boring the it is long.

Please allow me to introduce myself before we come to my feeling. I’m gfldex, I post with my main and am playing EVE Online since the end of 2004. I joined right after the first expension. I was told that was a good move because before Exodus downtime was what happened between 2 node crashes. I joined a corp that lived in Stain 2 weeks after I started playing the game. One day after that I killed my first player battleship. Granted, there where 10 other guys in my gang. But still I ruined the day of that dude. After a short stay in highsec to get some basic skills up I stayed in 0.0 for years. I died a lot. Before the dmg mod and sensor booster nerf we just died a lot. When you got primaried in a fleet fight you didn’t warp out. It was pointless anyway. We just died a lot and had a blast! After CA died I joined a dedicated PvP corp and moved around the map while avoiding highsec. There wasn’t much to do there anyway. We where piss poor and happy. Things got bigger in EVE and I grew with it. Both as a capsulier and as a person. You can learn a lot about leadership when you are resposible for 120 dudes and their battleships when you warp your fleet into a hostile camp. I was in BoB before and after we got disbanded. I like PVP but don’t like how it changed. I strongly dislike capitals and I loth supers. I took few short breaks from the game when I had to move house. And then I got an overdose of shooting Citadels. I blame Mitch Taylor for that. I still love you tho. Then Hilmar had an interview. (somebody link it please, can’t find it right now) I returned because of the Chaos That Shall Be. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! Sorry. Where was I? Yes, I returned with a plan. A simple plan actually. I place a gamble on the fact that retention rates go up. I then join a corp of new players. As I found the old farts hardly ever log in but are very quick to tell you what you do wrong, new players seam attractive. New players means empire space. Did I tell you that I loth supers? Login traps are lame but hotdrops are fine? I’m bittervetting. Sorry for that. Anyway, empire means making ISK in highsec so I improved my setup their and build up funds so I can actually focus on PvP and support a new corp. Tip your FC dammit! If all you sorry sods hand over a few MSIK to your FC after an evening of fun, that FC can atually focus on leading you! Those who lead carry a great burden in EVE. I got the ISK and my alts are set up to. Now I only need to wait for CCP to deliver to make EVE grow again.

I you are still reading this, you must care about my feeling. So here we go.

This is how I feel about EVE right now.

Some years ago I was helping players with killing Dagan. Those who ask for help got it free of charge. If they didn’t asked I helped them anyway and contracted Dagan to them for 5MISk. Somewhere between 10-20% engaged with me. Could you imagine this? Player interaction in highsec! If they stated not to have 5M they got my help for just 1M. Pretty much all who started a chat with me also asked for advice. The game doesn’t make it clear that the 2nd last mission in the lvl1 arc is designed to provoke teaming up with strangers. Since I know how the game works I could tell those who asked how to fit their ships properly. The GMs put an end to it. I was send an EVE mail by a GM telling me that I broke the official rules (yes, the also got official rules) by messing with new players in a starter system. I looked up that list and found that most of the lvl1 arc missions where not on it. So I filed a petition asking to take that final warning back or to add the mission systems to that list. The senior GM who handled my request choose to put an end to non-voluntary competitive PvE in lvl1 arc systems. Mind you, there where hardly any pilots younger then 30 days that got forcefully helped by me. The management of CCP allowes their GMs to shorten the petition queue by changing the rules. And slowly but steadily EVE becomes more boring.

A few weeks ago I was in need of help of the GMs myself. With the new “netcode” and the slicing up of the EVE server into micro services the game has became quite crashy. We always had closed sockets. With the new login scheme I often can’t log back in right away but have to wait 3 minutes before the launcher manages to acutally start a client. In the good old days we used to prelaunch clients so we only had to hit enter to start a reconnect. That does not work anymore. This sucks in PvP. Given the nature of PvP in EVE - which is essentially a waiting game - it is tollerable. In abysmal space it is not. I did many of those sites and since I had a buffer of 4 minutes a crash didn’t kill me. I was back in game after 3 minutes and could escape the inevitable collaps of space around me. Until one day the game refused to connect for a little more then 4 minutes. I tend to listen to streamed music why I endure the boredom of shooting the same NPCs over and over again so I can spot easily when my internet connection goes down. It didn’t. Since abysmal space is desinged (by a moron) with the assumtion that the socket is never closed I asked a GM for help. As it turns out they are only allowed to help with ship losses due to bad service of CCP Games if lots of players lose connection at the same time. 5BISK down the drain. I wont go into abysmal space ever again and if you plan to do so make damn sure you never have any sockets close on you. How to do that I don’t know. Neither does the BH who closed my bug report without even reading it.

CCP Convict, can you guess how I feel about customer service of CCP Games?

As the previous section shows I’m a bad man. What can you do when you want to play solo for some time because you are working at odd hours and don’t believe that EVE Online should be a boring game? THAT MEANS WAR! I got an alt that could fly a Drake and a Catalyst well. The best thing to shoot with a Catalyst is clearly a Hulk. So I found myself an active corp in highsec and declaired war. I kept a log that can be found here:

The cool bit happend at the end. One of my victims that I griefed badly by fighting 12 guys solo asked to join me. If he got a good bargain on a backstabknife or was truely impressed by the fact that in EVE Online a single player can take on a whole corp and win we will never know. Actually we can. If he is still playing he will surely answer an EVE mail I shall send right away.

Highsec wars used to have a function. It showed new players that there is more to the game then to shoot the same NPCs and rocks over and over again. A new or not so new player could learn if his (or in very few caes her) corp got good leadership or if it would be a good time to move on and find a proper corp with competent leadership.

When Dark Rising was quite young we spend a few weeks in highsec. And since Mitch knew that I was familiar with the area he asked me to find a suitable target for a war. I did find a corp that had more numbers but less guns. We had one battle with them that could have went the other way. It didn’t and we moved on with reinfocred confidence to go after the first installment of Red Alliance. Dark didn’t stay to fight them but I wanted to so I joind a corp in Veritas Immortales. To my surprise I was greeted by the corp I picked as a war target some months ago. That highsec war was their first taste of PvP combat and they liked it. In fact they stated their explicit gratitude that I showed them The Light. Does your heart beats faster just before you go to battle? Do you get the shake? Do you know any other game that does that? Well, not in highsec. Not anymore.

CCP Convict, can you guess how I feel about the wardec changes?

When I was in Evolution I found a true gem on the corp forum. A reply of a GM to Molle stating that there are no employees or associates of CCP Games left in his corp. After the t20 debacle it was a reasonable question to ask. BoB was always accused of dev favourism. We had very high recruitment standards. Both in skillpoints and player skill. Some ppl got accepted without any questions asked. We did favour devs indeed. And all we got in return was betrayal of our core values by a player that should never have been allowed to join in the first place.

End last year we got surprised by a very special gift. Devs are now allowed to play with us even if we get knowledge of their devdom. There was one thing missing in that announcement. That any dev cough cheating is looking for work the next day. Any other company whould have fired t20 on the spot. At least for me what was the reason why I didn’t want to play with devs anymore.

CCP Convict, can you guess how I feel about well known devs joining my corp?

Some years ago we shot the statue in Jita to show our dismay about being “milked”. A clear statement that we don’t want pay to win micro transaction in a game made for hardcore gamers. A seamingly compromise was settled because the value of pay to win items is regulated by routing PLEX sales through the ingame market. CCP tried to buy the vocal playerbase by sharing them in the deal. I accept cheaters and in turn they pay my subscription. Also I get to shoot them, which is nice.

I used to say that EVE is pay to lose. I make some ISK and buy minerals to build a Drake that you buy with your $ turned into PLEX. I then shoot your Drake until it pops. You are welcome. Some time ago a fellow complained on Reddit about a ban just because he turned $1000 into PLEX. I told him to call his bank and ask if Visa nuked his CC via the Online Watcher. (I’m working for a bank. That’s likely what happend.) Best wishes to him. But that leaves the question what he intended to spend $1000 on. I’m quite confident I could solo his Drake. His Avatar will prove difficult.

Skill injectors and PLEX are a godsend for botters. I personally don’t mind some russians competing over players dollars with CCP Games. What I do mind are those who deflate the value of honestly spend screen time. The bordom of shooting NPCs is giving ISK value. If you are clever and know the game well, you don’t have to. Or you just use your credit card. Unless you are russian ofc.

CCP Convict, can you guess how I feel about $1000 “micro” transactions?

I hope I have anwsered you original question by avoiding to name my feelings. Instead I provided how I see EVE right now. I hope the description of reality as I perceive it is more helpful then a clear bittervet statement.

That leaves the qustion why I am still here. I’m not here because all those shiny new ships or fancy graphics. 3 clients on a 4k screen? Potato it is! I don’t play for all the changes to the worse made in the last 10 years. I’m here because I remember the fun I had with Zena, PD, birdog and the other guys sortly after CA “was destroyed from within”. Us shooting them had nothing todo with their demise! We didn’t have timers. There was no dotlan. We first joined teamspeak to talk to our mates and then logged into the game. We acutally played the game and did so together instead with an army of alts. There was no ping on Discord. We where piss poor and had ■■■■ tons of fun. EVE was different back then. Simpler, purer, hardcore. We went into any fight expecting to lose our ships. It was a rush! Also we killed more of them they they killed of us. A clear victory. We had clear vicroties and I remember those very well. I hardly remember what happed in the last 10 years.

A note to Hilmar: It’s nice that you care for EVE again. I agree with your assesment that she needs help. She didn’t speak to me in a dream tho. Your drugs are clearly better then mine. What I don’t agree with is that you voice your concern through an intermediary. You don’t need an interviewer. You can speak to me directly - I’m right here. And I think you owe me as much. Literally. I payed (a very small portion) of your salary since 2004. I was there. And that’s not some marketing blurb. I was there when “we crushed that alliance”, as Oveur put it. You owe me becaue I keep paying even though EVE got changed into something she never meant to be. You owe me because under your watch Xetic Federation - Antipirat - Carebear - Krabs - or however you want to call the risk averse - won EVE.

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WELL good luck with the haters. They will flood this post because thats what they LOVE to do. Drag ya down because they have minds formed by fortnite and just LOVE to troll posts. GL

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Well written.
But the swine are only going to crap on the pearls.
And that, by the way, is ultimately the problem. The game did not change so much as has the player base. CCPs biggest mistake was listening to the player base.

Just yesterday I was reading an article about how bots are being used all over social media and web forums to sway opinion. It’s really just an automated way of doing that which was done to Eve. You can get 1000 people with no life to forum-brigand, or you can get a bot to do it with AI. Same difference. If CCP stuck to their original vision of the game and ignored the complainers, haters, and concern trollers, the game would be in a much better situation.

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If CCP would stuck to the game it may be in a better position. They admited that they didn’t play it but want to now. Quite amusing to think that a single dev - t20 - might be resposible for the mess EVE is in. But then, we didn’t want to play with them anymore. So our unwillingness to forgive might have made a shitty situation worse. Maybe this Jesus guy got a point. If I would spot him in lowsec I would still shoot him tho.

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I enjoyed the read, and I’m glad you posted it.

I just wish I had a tiny flicker of hope you’d get a reply from someone, anyone, at CCP; but that type of hope died a while back.

It is disheartening CCP does not interact on their own forums with the player base.

o7

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This, so much this. :psyccp:

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I think @CCP_Convict posted in that reddit thread that he will post the same thing here on the official forums soon. I didn’t pay attention so dunno, did he not follow through with that? :thinking:

The sad thing is that they will probably not read it here and you had better just posted it in that reddit thread.

Good post.

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I started playing again in 2009 with a new character with a different attitude. In any case you mention the war dec system, in 2009 the blanket war dec approach was not yet there, so hisec was a vibrant place, with people enjoying wars and stuff. You blame CCP and the mechanics, I blame the totally green killboard farmers that made people give up and log out because wars ended up not being fun, they ended in the main being little more than Turkey shoots because in the end it turned into a relentless search for easy targets. Blame the players…

What is happening now, well people are having a go at war dec’s, I have seen a number of new and older players start to play in a much more open way and do PvP and have fun with PvP because they are not totally locked in. With current system I can waste the ISK of blanket war decs while picking who we fight and it has been great fun.

A lot of people mistake turkey shoots for fun wars, they ain’t fun and it was the players who made it not fun. At least now most hisec wars are no longer that because the only people in the main that are having war decs on them are people that want them and that is a major improvement.

Bitch all you want about war decs but this is so much better then the five years before this change. Now it is down to players like me to get people to want to fight in wars, but not as easy kill patsies for losers that just want a turkey shoot.

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Well, that was quite a read.

I don’t think that stroll down memory lane actually answered CCP Convict’s question. It appears you seem to think most of the game changes have allowed ‘Risk Averse’ players to win Eve. Obviously a lot of the game changes over the past decade has caused a constant decline in log-in numbers. What changes and who did they benefit is a deep Rabbit Hole subject that I don’t want to jump into.

However I think this subject is very important:

CCP employee’s not even using their own Official Forums along with the constant censorship of any dissenting opinion about the game is a bad business practice. In my opinion that’s also a contributing factor to the decline in log-in numbers.

Why should players stick around if CCP’s own employees won’t do it. The Dev Blog posted about CCP Dev’s officially playing Eve is a futile action, it’s too little and too late to reverse the decline in numbers. CCP’s constant cash grab with Micro-Transactions is another contributing factor. Sadly I don’t see CCP changing their approach to these subjects anytime soon.

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What does any of that have to do with “Censorship”?

The EVE Forums are a horrible place filled with crybabies, bad ideas, and people who don’t know what they’re talking about. You have a cloaky camping thread that’s been going on for 3+ YEARS because a couple of kids can’t grow the spine to undock because there’s a neutral in the system. There are people trying to get Capitals in highsec because they just want to use them to run missions faster, without realizing the impact it would have in the rest of the game.

This isn’t about censorship.

This is about the quality of players on the forums. Abyssmal trash

This kind of ■■■■. Feelings. That’s all you guys can talk about. The people on the forums don’t have anything worth listening to because it’s all just ~Feelings~.

Like, congrats on telling your long story. But you are so wrong on so many parts.

No, they’re not. Botters don’t use Injectors or PLEX. You get plenty of SP from Refer-a-Friend to boost a new Alpha botting character straight into a krabbing Gila or Myrmidon. ALPHA ACCOUNTS were a godsend for botters, not Injectors or PLEX.

There are no $1000 microtransactions, nor are you forced to buy them. So this is just you feeling offended because something exists that you can’t afford.

And this is the worst part.

Your entire post can be summed up in, “We had fun back when EVE was new and people didn’t know how to figure it out. But now players have gotten efficient, we don’t get easy kills anymore! EVE WAS BETTER IN THE PAST!!”

What’s stopping you from just taking out a random fleet and having “simple pure hardcore” pvp? What’s stopping you from going into a fight expecting to lose? Nothing. The only thing that’s changed is that in 10+ years, people have figured out the game and learned how to be efficient.

To hell with your feelings. Self mastrubatory posts like this are part of the reason why CCP doesn’t care about the feedback from the forums. Congrats, looking back to the past with your rose tinted glasses of nostalgia makes you ~feel~ things. That’s great. But that’s not how CCP should be looking to patch EVE Online with.

The 2 big things you cry about (Plex and Injectors for Botters, and $1000 microtransactions) aren’t even an issue. They just make you feel bad.

Oh, and P.S.,

This is cute. To imagine any “well known devs” will actively want to go out and join any particular group that they’re not already in with undercover alts. l m a o

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I had to read the sentence 3x to get it. Then it made my day. Thank you very much indeed.

A very long post, and some interesting points made. I don’t agree with a lot of the points, but do agree with some of them. Regardless, valid from your point of view.

I’m honestly unsure at what point people think “the players made EVE bad and CCP made it worse when it listened to them”, since in my 12-ish years of playing EVE I’ve never observed CCP to listen to players particularly well, even on topics which are glaringly obvious.

I think it’s far more a case of “EVE worked when it was young and wide open and people hadn’t figured out every mechanic to the 3rd decimal place” plus “CCP catered to whoever was buying the most subs”.

Whatever the true cause, moaning about the good ol’ days, while useful to highlight some issues, won’t help get EVE back on track. Adjusting the current game to deal with the current environment (megarich players, a mature player base in skills/XP/resources, a tamed and farmed Null, capitals out the wazoo and a declining player base) is going to require new ways of balancing the game, not “we just need to go back to 2008” reminiscing.

How I feel about EVE is the same way I’ve felt for almost 10 years now: it’s got great potential that’s being wasted because it’s in the hands of a company that got lucky once and has never bothered to learn actual game design since. They need to acquire some actual talent and get to work, instead of stumbling through the motions waiting for the inevitable “maintenance mode” announcement.

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Looks like we have pretty similar backgrounds as EVE players. I started in 2004 as well, and was recruited into EVE by SirMolle from the Homeworld community. Evolution was the first player corp I joined and looks like we were both in Setenta at some points, too.

Sounds like ransoming mission loot for for the SoE arc which new players are widely encouraged to run might have been considered griefing newbros by the GM, even if it wasn’t occurring in a designated starter system. Can’t say I’m surprised you got asked to lay off, especially if some of them were younger than 30 days.

So yes, some pilots you ransomed definitely were younger than 30 days then.

It wasn’t missing. The dev blog states: “In case of serious infractions (such as verified cheating or misuse of insider knowledge and Developer Tools), further disciplinary measures - up to and including termination of employment - may also be taken by CCP.”

Ok so that claim is completely false. The same dev blog I quoted from in my previous response clearly articulated that many devs have been playing EVE all this time, but the old policy around anonymity made it risky for us to engage in certain areas of play due to the heavy scrutiny that player corps subject new recruits to.

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I did say I was going to replicate it here but that thread blew up so massively I’m still putting out the flames on my inbox, and there’s still a bunch of DMs that came along with it which I still haven’t got around to reading and replying to. I’d still like to kick off a similar thread on these forums but I’m still not done fully processing the feedback from the last one even a week later! :pleading_face:

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I didn’t even notice this until CCP Convict called you out on it, but admitting to extorting new players, wow. And then saying that EVE got more “boring” after GMs told you to stop extorting new players. And then trying to frame your extortion as “forcefully helping”, lmao. You sound like a swell individual.

I’m just gonna quote that whole section so you can’t edit it away.

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EVE is a remarkable MMO experiment, letting players choose to be a lot meaner to other players than other MMO’s. But, rules and GM’s have to place limits on just how “bad” you can be, perpetually leading to conflicts with players who want to push the boundary. Some players are role-playing a bad guy, but with some others you wonder how much of their act is role-playing :wink:

(This is a generic observation, not aimed at any specific player in this thread.)

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Generally agree with the op.

What made eve beautiful was the devs leaving it up to the players to be naughty or nice, the chance of having your day ruined and the living player universe.

The ransoming of new players is sketchy. But the part about wardecs bringing players together, either to form a defence fleet or to discover that taste for blood, that there are ways to hunt other players and play cat-n-mouse games, is bang on.

So much content was lost. All that’s left is the grind.

That was not easy enough to understand, so let me make it clear I played from 2004 to 2007 as a pirate type in lowsec. I gave my account away and started again in 2009. That should clear it up for you, but by just picking up that garbled sentence I made and ignoring the issues I raised on why the new war dec system is so much better makes me think you are just a typical Eve forum HTFU no change to this game troll. You made what I see as an idealised statement on war decs with no understanding of what happened in the five years prior to the change. It has not yet developed its real impact and is still in process, so hisec players were left with five years of stupid log off and wait war decs and now after how long, people like you cry over this.

The simple fact is that the war dec changes are a good thing for balance in hisec and we no longer have people logging off and never coming back to the game. People who want to have structures expose themselves to war, this means that people have a choice whether to be exposed to war.

Now we have people who are hisec players starting to have more wars, going after the gankers and griefers. my group for example took down a number of ganker structures and will continue doing this while frustrating the blanket war deckers with the mechanics. This is a long road back towards better more involved wars not the pipe and hub turkey shoots, I am not surprised a player like you who preyed on very new players and got told off for it hates this change. So if you hate it so much go away, this game does not need turkey shoot players like you.

PS That first sentence was left deliberately opaque to see if you would focus on a quick insult to deflect from the meat of my question, you failed that test with flying colours mate.

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Again.

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