A change to buy/sell duration tax?

Communications Center General Discussion
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This may be a terrible suggestion but I noticed what is a problem (to me at-least) in the new broker fee trade system. To those who do a lot of buy/selling and engage in all the little tricks and tactics maybe you have felt the same thing.

When a person puts up a buy order for example, the default is to put up for the longest duration of 3 month coz why not?. This wasn’t really an issue back in the .1 isk days but now I feel it is. If a person puts up a buy order that is at such a margin that no profit is possible, that order will simply stay there for 3 month or until the order is met. It’s fine if it’s a small order or order in a high volume market but not so fine if they put up a large order that immediate sell demand can not meet any time soon.

Why this is a problem is that it shuts out many styles of trading and for many reasons. For example reprocess trading can be worth while with the correct module buy orders but as with any trading the profit lines can soon become none existent, especially on mods that have production value or pvp/pve value. This means people buying low to re-sell have a much wider profit margin than a person reprocessing. The issue around that is a person may put up a high buy order of say 200K x1000 on an item that is selling for say 255K. That’s a very tight margin (just example figure) for buy/re-sell and it shuts out all other competition for 3 month.

Now I could go on giving examples of who this 3 month buy/re-sell effects other buy-sellers and how it even effects just sellers, but well, traders understand what I am getting at by now and none traders won’t care.

My suggestion is that buy or sell orders actually account for duration in the broker fee… and that editing a sell or buy order will also include the duration fee. The purpose of this is so that people have incentive to use lower duration trading as the tax will be lower (obviously higher tax for higher duration). What this then does is opens up more angles of trading and more tactics to be able to carve out some profit in different areas. You would see people having even only day long buy/sell orders to have the lowest possible tax (it comes at a risk that all traders will understand). But the secondary tactic to that is a player may decide to wait out such a low time-scale buy order rather than update his/her buy/sell order.

Obviously I have no idea what such tax numbers would look like, but the emphasis is to really make mid to long term buy/sell orders have to be considered carefully if they are truly worth the extra duration tax.

Sorry if it’s a terrible Idea, I just notice that it’s a very bad bottle neck in the trading system. Maybe I’m wrong.

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i got an very Genius idea About this … dont create sell / buyorders for 3 month ! TADA … Problem solved

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https://forums.eveonline.com/c/technology-research/player-features-ideas/74

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So what you are trying to say through the lines is ‘don’t play any kind of market game at all,play ONLY the game the way it is played right(pvp) and everything else can go away’?

Sounds like it…

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ive just say, if he dont like it then dont do it xD think what you want

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Just cancel it?

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I’m just stating my impression,nothing more :slight_smile:

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And? Where is the problem? That you can’t buy below his price?

What is the problem here? Put reasonably sized buy order… or eat the loss should the value of module drop.

I am sorry, I just fail to notice any issue.

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It probably is so I didn’t read any further. BTW wrong forum.

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It is complicated to explain as many different aspects but I can try to give you one simple example.

If a guy puts up a buy order for 250K and the sell orders are 260K then the tax margin is pretty much finished (it’s just for sake of example). This guy may have 1000 buy order at this price for 3 month. Similarly one guy may have 1000 sell orders at 270k for 3 month. Now, the person who was selling may have bought up that market so that he is the main supply and only a few other traders have sell orders above his. So then picture this situation, both the buyer at 250k and the seller at 270k have both ‘‘set and forget’’ the orders OR they actually are not playing the game so much. Now this small part of the market is locked in place.

To stick with this example, if you are selling the item the nit makes sense to quick sell for most as it’s only 20k difference. However these ‘‘quick sellers’’ may just be simple mission runners for example, and have very low volume so won’t put a dint in the 1000x buy order.

So what is happening now is a trade stale mate, a accidental monoploy so to speak. The price can not drop and the price can not increase until the product on buy or sell has gone so that new buy/sell can be established. This is a problem as it makes a stale mate or bottle neck in the free flow of the goods. You can see much of this going on in the Trig goods. Long high buy orders that also match the inflated sell orders. The prices are too high so that most players won’t buy these items for production or general trade, yet ‘‘buy order’’ people can not buy the items any cheaper than that one guys ‘‘high buy order’’, if they could, they could then lower the ‘‘sell price’’. Fluid production and trade lowers prices. Long high buy orders creat both trading stale mate and also push up sell prices feeding back into the problem that consumers refuse to pay the prices.

My idea is to find a way to deter people from simply choosing 3 month duration because ‘‘why not’’. The 3 month duration is a valid duration for high value low drop rate goods, like Type-A, black ops vessels and so forth. For medium volume modules it’s not so good, it creates trade stagnation as I mentioned above. With good incentive to use say 3 day or 1 week trading, it means people who use that but then ‘‘go awol’’ are not still holding a grip over the market 3 month later, completely unaware they are doing so.

The thing I mean with this is that trade is not all about buy low sell high. Their are many ways to make money trading but the current system limits it in most cases to simply ‘‘try’’ to buy low sell high. The problem with that system, as I said above now shows with the added broker tax yet no change on lengthy high price high volume buy orders. That is the effect of the tax, that people will just put up higher buy orders so that they won’t have to mess around so much with updating things and losing money on those edits. Yes good traders will use smaller orders but you can’t do that if some lazy guy has just smashed up a high buy order that isn’t even profitable (he hasn’t checked).

This can also keep prices inflated or increase them as I will try to explain. If the buy order x1000 stays at 250k yet the seller sells all his orders at 270k, the next seller can look at the 250k buy order and base his sell price from that. He now may go 300K. Anybody who watches the market knows that 300k is not right, it is inflating, and it is a high risk to then put up a buy order for 280k (beating the original guy). When you do that, then some other guy who has no idea how the market works puts another 3 month 1000x buy order up for 290k. Slowly the prices climb due to the climbing long duration buy orders.

I hope you can see what I am talking about, this leap frogging will still happen over 1 week periods but it will speed up the flow of goods a lot more and reduce prices faster over time (or increase prices faster for temporary booming areas of the market).

It is I think broken. It is like a company in real life paying a one time high payment then having only it’s add ran in that industry for the next 3 month with no competition. That is 101 monopoly street.

It’s Ironic that you didn’t take the time to read my post yet you made a post for me to read.

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That’s your whole problem…you didn’t read enough…glad you noticed it at last…

Now do something about it and come back in let’s say 6 months as an better individual… :stuck_out_tongue:

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Let me get this straight… this whole scenario hinges on some idiot putting stupid buy order (250K + broker fees is almost 270K) instead of buying out sell order…
You want to prevent people from doing stupid things?
And sorry, but I still don’t see the problem here… what is EXACTLY the problem? This monopoly situation, while can happen, is only going to cause loss of isk for the one doing it… if it is duopoly (different owners of buy and sell orders) then you have one idiot. Nothing can be done about it.

Is the problem that YOU have to pay more for the stuff? Then git gud…

Trade is all about selling higher than you bought/made stuff for. Everything else is generating loss… I agree that not everything is sold at high margins because on some goods (t1 small ammo for example) you only care about them being on the market so that you can sell also ships and modules (multibuy: if something is missing from market then whole sale is likely lost, including whatever t2 mods would need for that fit)

Welcome to trading. You will always have to take some risk. Time to get good at pricing your goods instead of always being 0.01 below/above.

How do you know that he has no idea how market works? Maybe he just needs to fill his corp/alliance needs and is willing to pay that for whatever he buys but not more - and he wants them to fill reasonably quickly, hence quite high buy order. Or maybe he supplies market where he can sell at profit.
You should stop assuming that people don’t have clue just because they want to pay more for stuff. I see sell orders just tick above buy order - that is when you can see that someone had no clue. Putting intentional buy order is different thing (and buy orders tend to be intentional, unlike sell orders 1 tick above buy).

No, what you propose will is not going to have that effect. Instead it will actually decrease buy prices while increasing sell prices. For simple reason - orders will disappear faster, hence less competition.

It is not broken… I regularly put big buy/sell orders above/below what other want to do… why? Because I make a lot of stuff, and when my margin is 20-30% I care more about increasing velocity of good instead of squeezing extra isk from every unit.

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