Hiatus and Brokers Fees

So I came back to eve about 3-ish days ago after taking roughly 1.5 years off. I figured I would get back into my old money making habits comprised of indy and market stuff to fuel my exploding ship habit.

Since I was so used to clicking all the buttons, it took me a day or two to realize just how massively brokers fees had changed. So, I went and read the article that discussed all the changes https://www.eveonline.com/article/q67fqo/broker-relations

Now, I understand what the article is saying and I understand that the intention is to remove botting from the game. Which I completely agree with

That being said, here’s the issue that I have with the new market: it’s no longer profitable. Plain and simple

The reason is pretty straight forward. Having exorbitantly high fees/taxes will stifle any economy.
For example:

I want to sell 100 units of coffee at 1 dollar per coffee, so I list the coffee for sale
Someone else decides to sell coffee for .99 dollars per coffee
under the old system I would modify my order to .98 dollars per coffee and I would only lose out on potential sales revenue. And that’s pretty much it
under the new system, not only do I lose money making potential, but I must also pay upwards of half a million to modify my order. Very quickly taking any and all profit out of my market orders

Why is this important? Because if you remove profit, then there’s no reason to sell anything, consequently drying up all but the largest market hubs (namely Jita). Congrats, the only people making any isk via the market are the Sotiyo’s outside of Jita and Amarr

In the article listed above, they talk about making the market “fair”
1.) When has eve ever been fair? Call it market pvp, whatever
2.) how is it fair to completely remove peoples ability to make isk via the market?
2.5.) Not to mention requiring at least 1% fees and taking half of it

So, my question to the devs is: whats so bad about .01 isking? This new system is total shite

Possible alternate solutions to combat botting:
1.) doubling or tripling the wait time to modify orders
2.) require Omega to place non-immediate market orders
3.) reduce the total number of active market orders (keeps profit margins up, but reduces 1 persons ability to have a finger in every pie, thus freeing up the market to greater competition)
4.) keep things as they are right now, and introduce new skills that reduce brokers fees by up to 90-95% (nothing longer than 14 days to level 5)
5.) a mix of all the of the above

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They answered that already.

Currently, the cost to modify an order by a small amount is negligible. The only real constraint is the five minute delay before an individual order can be modified, but this is relatively easy to minimize for a trader with many order slots.

As a result, the optimal strategy becomes “Always create your orders at 0.01 ISK above/below the current best order, and always update your order ASAP by 0.01 ISK if it isn’t the highest buy or lowest sell.”

Competition between traders comes down to who (or what) can micro-manage their orders for the longest period of time, rather than who is making the most intelligent pricing decisions.

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My point is, by instituting changes that punish modifying orders, aka .01 isking, they’ve taken away the incentive by making it prohibitively expensive

“Taken away the incentive” to… what?
Incentive to do what?

It really is not impossible to make money from the market any more. If all you do is mindlessly adjust orders then yeah you’ll probably lose money, but if you think about it a little and either post orders and let the prices swing into your orders, or undercut by bug margins so you get bought out, or trade higher margin stuff, or… you’ll be fine. I haven’t really noticed much change in my profits tbh, though I tend to go for the “set up orders and leave them for a day or 2” approach.

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For certain items I agree with you, such as POCOs
Other items such as t2 blasters not so much. it doesnt take a whole lot for someone to undercut you, and if you dont undercut them, all new orders will be below yours. it would be a never ending cycle. the only way to get your stuff sold would be if new supply suddenly dried up

Incentive to lower you prices and thus move goods without incurring losses

You can just… price them lower to begin with…
Is that too difficult?

Here are some of my orders.

They’ve been selling fine for the last 2 months and I haven’t had to touch 'em at all.

I think you misunderstand me - if you place an order in between the buy/sell spread, like youve suggested “just price them lower”, youve already lost that portion of potential revenue. youre cutting yourself short from the get go. additionally, someone can just come in and undercut you

All you’ve done is lowered your revenue, created a new artificial floor to the price, and drastically cut the velocity of the in game currency

image
Wow, so I must be doing something very wrong by pricing my sell orders smartly and not touching them for 2 months. :thinking:

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"like youve suggested “just price them lower”, youve already lost that portion of potential revenue. youre cutting yourself short from the get go. "

This has never been true. Stuff priced notably below average buy orders will sell, and will probably sell faster as people see it as a better deal or buy yours up to relist. Either way you have your profit faster to re-invest in something else (or the same thing). So long as you’re making money you’re winning. Others have written about this before, but contrary to popular belief 0.01isking is not the most profitable way to trade.

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Agreed, items will move much faster if you place them halfway between the buy/sell spread.
But people shouldn’t be punished for pricing their items differently from yours. If they’re asking too much or offering too little, let the market decide that and they can respond accordingly. Sky high taxes and fees should not be the way to go
Outside of that, I think you have the right idea about what and how to invest your money into

People aren’t being punished for pricing items differently.
They’re being punished for repeatedly updating their market order to try and be “first” to sell their goods.

  • If you really want to sell your goods quickly, price them appropriately, knowing that you may not make as great margins per item.
  • If you want to eek out the best margins, price them appropriately, knowing that you may end up getting undercut by someone else’s order.

You’re not going to get the best of both worlds anymore.

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Incurring enormous broker fees is in fact a punishment, especially when it is only updating what is essentially the strike price. And what is wrong with that? I’m willing to take a cut in revenue and therefore lower my price, AND I take an additional shot to my wallet for doing so?
I think a combination of the possible alternate solutions I listed in the op are much better than the current broker fees, especially since it would be in tandem with the new sig figs. its literally impossible to .01 isk now

I don’t think so.

Change your trading style. Everyone knows everything you’re saying already, not really useful to keep complaining about it.

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I wouldn’t say that, I still make over 10b a month off hub trading, limit orders, and reselling items. Nothing really has changed.

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Honestly, there’s already been a bunch of threads of people complaining about the new market changes, and I don’t really feel like having to start this conversation back at zero. So, I’m just going to say,

image

Sigh, I just read more of what you posted
Pull me back in

Okay, I liked to .01 isk. I used it to great affect in regional market hubs (i.e. oursalaert, clellinon) to crush the fight out of other traders. Like, I didn’t have to .01 isk war all day every day, I just had to do it long enough for my competition to give up. And quite frankly, I considered it a sign that I was doing it right when people would message me asking if I was a bot. I mean, nothing makes a person give up faster than feeling like they are competing with a program that will never get tired or give up.


Of course, the problem with that is that while people thinking I was a bot was good for me, it was terrible for the game. Moreover, even if they knew I wasn’t a bot, I’m still willing to bet that most players have no desire to sit around updating market orders. Like, I doubt most people would consider this fun gameplay. You know what I’m saying?

So what does this change accomplish? Well, it not only makes using a market bot not worth the risk, which will reduce actual botting, but it also will likely go a long way towards reducing the belief that market botting is more prevalent than it actually is. Moreover, it changes the game so that profitability is more dependent on pricing and location choices, rather than on how much you’re willing to brute force your market orders to the top position.

Now, is this the best way to do it? Meh, I think it’s better for the game than the old system was, but I would have rather gone another route. The problem with my idea, however, is that it would have completely overhauled industry and trade, ended up influencing balance and the meta, and required a butt ton of development resources as a result. So that’s why I never mentioned it. Now it’s possible that there could be a better solution that doesn’t require ridiculous amounts of dev time, but so far every solution offered by the players have had problems of their own. For example, check out this suggestion which was posted about the same time as yours.

Okay, let’s take a look at some of your specific points.

Get out of here. Industrialists already pass production and market costs onto the customers, so why would they stop now? Now, increased prices may reduce consumer spending, but as long as ships keep going boom, people will keep buying stuff. Moreover, the less profit there is in an activity, the less people who do it. This provides a positive feedback loop in industry, because we have a player driven economy, which has prices dictated by supply and demand. So, if you’re truly and industrialist, chill. Everything will be alright. And if you’re a station trader trying to use industrialist as a shield against criticism, you can go pack sand.

Speaking of which, there are some big losers here, and they’re the station traders. Quite honestly, however, I don’t have much sympathy for them. Without getting into it, I do think that some provide a valuable service, but many are just forcefully injecting themselves as middle men so that they can take a cut (and some are just straight up blue fookers). I mean, if you can make money doing it, then good for you. But don’t come in arguing that it’s bad for the game because you can no longer continue to take the same cut of the pie without actually providing any service or product.

I agree. But perceptions of widespread botting can drive people away in droves.

Once again, this is an absurd statement. I mean, it’s so bad that you hurt your overall argument by making it.

Will do nothing to discourage botting, and is easily circumvented by training up additional market alts. FYI, you can currently get around the 5min limit by creating more market orders of smaller stacks. Thus, you can make sure that you always have at least one market order that is ready to update.

This won’t fix anything. People do bot on omega accounts.

Once again, it’s easily circumvented by creating alts. It’s just going to make people accuse CCP of making a shameless cash grab, give more ammo to the players who complain you need alts to compete and be successful, and not actually fix anything.

So, you’re asking that people be forced to train longer just to get things back to the status quo?

Anyway, you can still make a profit, you’re just going to have to adjust your strategy. You can:

  • sell with higher margins out of less busy stations
  • sell with lower margins out of busier stations
  • sell out of upwell structures to reduce your market fees (but increase the risk of lost market fees and having to move your stuff or pay asset safety if the structure is attacked)
  • get the security of an NPC station, but pay increased fees as a result.

In summation, adapt or die (or, I guess, come up with a solution that can actually hold water).

I can’t believe I wrote this wall of text after all the other comments I made in other threads. I’m going to start asking ISD’s to start shutting down these threads for redundancy after this one.

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I’m a station trader, and I agree with everything Shipwreck Jones wrote. I was a 0.1 ISKer before – not because I was mindless, but because I felt anything else was just wasteful. I made a lot of money with my chosen play style.

The market changes forced me to make significant adjustments to my strategy and play style. But I’m still a station trader, and still making a lot of money.

If you can’t figure out how to be profitable in the new system, then you probably shouldn’t be heavily involved in the market anymore. Just like I’m not involved in moon mining or industry or gate camping.

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The service is a stable and predictable market for the producers and consumers.

The markets are obviously more volatile since the changes, as the profit margins are larger, and the traders are fewer. I have seen even quite popular items in Jita now end up with no buy orders at all.