A hypothesis of Drifter-Jove identity

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
21

That’s unsurprising, considering it’s we who brought aggression into their domain. It’s these greedy capsuleers who started going into Anoikis, attacking ships there and destroying structures, caused Drifters to show their aggression. Tell me, if a hideously looking burglar would break into your home, killed couple your family members and started thrashing your furniture, grabbing some tissue of dead people and furniture wrecks for their experiments - would you prefer to talk them out of it, or just shoot on contact?

The behavior greedy eggers show in Anoikis could be an explanation that Drifters simply aren’t interested in discussing anything with us.

or to use us.

22

Okay, yeah, we Capsuleers are total bastards, but you’re just making my point for me. If we’ve already soured the Drifters against us, we have no reason to assume they’ll be open to changing their attitudes. If anything, your Caldari ideas of “proving yourselves” worthy of alliance, through honour/dignity/skill, are more aligned with the Triglavians’ ideas.

Believe me when I say this: We understand less about the Drifters’ motivations than the Triglavians’. To pretend otherwise, to ascribe your ideals to a millenia-old culture we know almost nothing about, is raw, bitter hubris. If the Triglavians are using us, and that’s not unlikely… at least we know we’re being used. Perhaps, in this scenario, the Triglavians are “The Devil We Know”.

2 Likes
23

It’s a bit fuzzy, but I believe that when the Circadian Sleepers showed up, they left everyone alone and Mankind decided that the only plausible course of action under such circumstances was to start blowing them up. Have I mentioned that Mankind is a dead end? Anyway, the Drifters came to the defense of the Sleepers, which of course made them the bad guys.

They harbored some particular animosity to Her Revenant (no, not that Revenant) Majesty. But Her Revenant Majesty took a Golden Fleet into their space and came back with cybernetic attack marines. The Drifter posture toward Mankind is warranted.

Meanwhile: the obvious conclusion is never the right conclusion; the Triglavians are clearly hiding something; and, Mr. Aloga is correct.

I have no idea why there is even a conflict.

To say that space is big enough for all of us is a grotesque understatement. These are civilizations which have passed beyond the boundaries of our cluster, which is at most .00001 or so percent of our galaxy. They may have passed beyond that galaxy. Conflict over limited resources is absurd.

What’s the deal, ancient precursor civilizations? Out with it.

1 Like
24

As I said, we don’t know enough about the Drifters to say much… but we’re pretty sure the Circadian Sleepers were always under Drifter control. The Drifters responded because they, not their allies, were the ones being attacked. As for why the Drifters care so much about our territory, why they continue to send scouts despite Humans responding primarily with gunfire… Again, most of our knowledge on the Drifters just forms an outline of what we do not know.

To say that the Precursors have passed beyond the boundaries of New Eden is bold, but we cannot confirm it. This question is central to our understanding of the Drifters’ motives in particular, however. If they’ve passed beyond the edge of the cluster, but chose to return, they did so for a reason. Perhaps nothing beyond is within their reach; perhaps they’re sentimental about their home territory; perhaps there are more practical reasons to occupy this territory, like access to the Sleepers.

If they haven’t left New Eden, but were here all along… the answer is self-evident: They’re just like the rest of us, in that New Eden is all they have.

1 Like
25

I agree that our knowledge of the Drifters is inadequate. But I cannot assign them the role of “bad guy” based on their reaction to our aggression. I think they have behaved rationally, whereas the Triglavians are giving off a “we’re not telling you for your own good” vibe. Whenever someone doesn’t tell you something “for your own good,” it is never for your own good.

However, we may mean different things by “New Eden.” I mean the cluster of stars accessible by our gate network, which I believe is roughly 100 light years square and 20 or so thick.

At least some of the wormhole systems are in orbit around a supermassive black hole. I acknowledge that there may be “readings” which place that thing “nearby.” But there is simply not a supermassive black hole within 100 light years of our star gate network.

Although our stars are closely packed, we are simply not in the nucleus. We seem to be in a globule of stars far out on a galactic arm. That puts us thousands if not tens of thousands (if not hundreds of millions) of light years away from that black hole.

2 Likes
26

I never said the Drifters were villains, only that you mis-attributed their justified anger. They’re not a villain, merely a burnt bridge (if there was a bridge there at all) which we must accept as such. I get more of a “We aren’t telling you because we know you’ll use the information against us” vibe (and rightly so) from the Triglavians, by the by.

You make one good point, however: I had actually forgotten, or ignored, that the Drifters live in the depths of Anoikis… and we haven’t the faintest clue where Anoikis is in relation to New Eden, though when you mention a Supermassive, I think first of the galactic core… That just raises more question about the Wormholes, however, and why Anoikis and New Eden connect together (Presumably Second Empire fuckery, from what we know, but that doesn’t really answer the question)… truly, the Drifter mystery is wrapped in a multitude of other enigmas.

2 Likes
27

I’d say not to get overly involved until more facts and information become available. To do otherwise is like intervening in a fight without knowing who threw the first punch.

2 Likes
28

The thing is, IF Drifters are Jove indeed, then it would mean it’s not just a fight between two entities, but it’s a fight of our former misjudged friend (whom we hurt, still raiding their homes) with an awkward enemy (who tries to befriend us, offering us goodies), which surely complicates things.

So, if Drifters are Jove, then those who attack sites in Anoikis, and more importantly, those who attack Drifter staging systems directly - are the main enemies of humanity and our cluster.

1 Like
29

:popcorn:

2 Likes
30

The potential attack vector on Arataka Research Consortium notwithstanding (given your historical animus to the group and potential conflating their activities in Anoikis as ‘main enemies of humanity’); Yes, the Drifters may very well be Jove, and yes, if so I think due care and consideration has to be conducted as regards them in recognition of the role Jovian assistance played in securing Caldari independence – at least until more information is available regarding them.

However, the SoCT who are the legitimate successors to the Jovian Empire have so far issued no statements clarifying matters regarding either the Drifters or Triglavians which means to me at least, not drawing too many conclusions until, again, more information is available.

1 Like
31

Meh.
ARC is just a group led by a dishonorable woman. If I wanted to target them specifically, I’d bring one of their scamming schemes of acquiring artifacts for “research”. In the grand scheme of things, they are insignificant. The problem is way wider than just loud slanderer Makoto and couple of her fanatical henchmen - there are dozens of capsuleers going into Wormhole space and raid on a regular basis. Greed guides them to destroy what others create, they behave just like rogue drones, harvesting everything other civilization has created without even thinking that Drifters are those whom we shall thank for giving us the capsule (provided that the hypothesis proposed is correct).

The problem is amplified by the fact than wormhole space simply cannot be regulated and these brigands just do in there whatever they want, manifesting gallentean ideals of freedom, that eventually comes down to “burn, pillage and salvage”. CONCORD tried to prevent Capsuleers from venturing there, “warning” us. But were their words heard? Or the pilots just dove in with craze “Oh, so CONCORD is against it? So LETS DO IT!”

As far as I am aware the SoCT is not genuinely Jove organization nowadays. While being started as Jove, I believe currently it is staffed almost exclusively by “our” people. And it’s not really a governmental organization as I imagine that. I think an equivalent would be if instead of Caldari State Caldari people would be represented in CONCORD by, for example, Science and Trade Institute.

IMHO Drifters shall take place of SoCT if the claims they’re “Jove Second Empire” is true.

32

The Jovian Directorate, not the Second Jove Empire, nor even the Third Jovian Empire, were signatories to CONCORD. Thus, the Second Jove Empire do not have the standing to assume the Directorate’s seat. It would be like Federal citizens born, raised, and still living on Caldari Prime insisting they had the right to the Caldari State’s seat on the Council because they, not the State, are ‘Caldari’. That would be a ridiculous claim. Likewise, Second Empire Jove claiming they have a right to the Directorate’s position is ridiculous. The Directorate clearly designated the Society as their successors, or CONCORD would not have seated them.

As far as the Drifters v Trigs issue goes: If current speculation is accurate, then consider this:

At some point in the past, a faction of a space-faring power decided to cut ties with that power, because they felt the larger association’s leaders were oppressive and corrupt. They clearly had the necessary technology and firepower to depart their previously-held space and establish new territory outside of that held by their former nation. Now, that nation is actively trying to intrude on their new territory. As a result, certain vocal representatives insist that the oppressor nation must be eliminated.

Did I just describe the Drifter/Triglavian conflict, or the Federation/State conflict?

3 Likes
33

However the Jovian Directorate did appoint the SoCT to represent them on CONCORD councils even if they are not the Directorate itself. While I would agree, the SoCT is not the Jovian Directorate proper, that does not mean they are lacking in legitimacy in my mind.

If the Caldari State suffered such a deleterious loss of people due to disease and war that presumably the Directorate suffered that all that was left was the STI then I think in that scenario the STI would represent the Caldari State.

Although I think my views on the Jove and Drifters are roughly analogous to the old tautology about all squares being rectangles, but not all rectangles being squares. Yes, the Drifters might be Jove, just as the Jovian Directorate are Jove. That does not, in my mind at least, immediately mean both Drifters and the Directorate share similar goals, beliefs, or outlooks.

2 Likes
34

The last confirmed contact with the Directorate was YC 112, since then they have been noticeable by their absence, which leads me to think they are extinct or all in cryostasis. The Drifters have yet to communicate with us, in any recognizable form. shown contempt if anything, and not, as yet, developed in any real way. That’s why I say they are not really intelligent in some respects. They seem to possess cognitive abilities but no emotional drives. The Triglavians on the other hand do.

1 Like
35

The Directorate, from what we know, is “gone”. Makoto Priano likes to say they “Went West”, perhaps to a greener pasture, but all we know is that they’re gone.

The fact that they’ve named an heir seems to indicate they may not be planning to come back.

1 Like
36

Makoto Priano is known for saying things that are obviously not true, thus I don’t believe quoting her in a discussion will give weight to your words, quote counterwise. You’d do a better job citing a prop comedian from Jita - at least their jokes have a grain of truth and some underlying basis.

I am not convinced myself completely that Drifters are Jove and more pondering on “what if” scenario. But, since we turned it towards disappearance of Jove Directorate, there’s an interesting thing to ponder about: it’s pretty much tied with appearance of Drifters. So, maybe… maaaybe… Jove didn’t just “disappear” or went to greener pastures, but became Drifters?

37

There’s a big issue needing some attention.

Even after all these years, the Drifters just don’t talk to us. We know they can; they impersonated Hilen Tukoss for the Site One deception, remember, where they got us to give them Jovian DNA samples.

The Triglavians do talk. They seem to even get kind of a kick out of finding clever ways to talk with us. They might be playing games in some way, like keeping us busy analyzing their communications for meaning instead of for intent, but at least they’re talking.

The Drifters just don’t talk. And, after all this time … people will talk, even to a deadly enemy, you know? They run diplomacy, propaganda, psy-ops; there are all kinds of reasons to talk to even really dedicated enemies. The Drifters don’t, though, not at all.

The Jove have always kind of been the patrons of younger powers. They might have had some fondness for us, and especially the capsuleer class, but it’s not like they’ve looked at us as equals even at their friendliest. That’s when they were friends. If the Drifters don’t (and they really really don’t), I have to think the only possible reason’s that they just don’t want to, which, after all this time, means they look at us with total contempt-- that they think of us as vermin, unworthy of communication.

The Triglavians are likely using us for their own purposes in some way. Really, they’ve all but admitted it: to be welcome in the Abyss, we need to prove the direction of our flow-- however I read that, it’s ultimately about compatibility with Triglavian goals and intentions. I’m kind of fine with that; people have been using each other for their own ends probably as long as there’ve been people. Really, how else should we define, like, trade? Each has something the other wants, so there’s an exchange. So if the Triglavians are using me when I dive the Abyss, that’s fine; I’m definitely using them, too.

The Drifters don’t invite such things. They don’t negotiate any exchange; they identify what they want and take it. Plead with them, curse them, worship them-- do what we will, I doubt they care. There is of course a risk in doing things that might provoke them: biting or stinging vermin tends to get exterminated that much faster.

But there’s a risk in inaction, also: when someone’s in a mind-state that can identify sapient beings as vermin, their intentions towards those “vermin” are pretty unlikely to be kind, and pretty likely to be just the opposite. They might exterminate us faster if we sting them, but, it doesn’t mean they’re going to leave the infestation-- us-- in peace, just because we stop.

2 Likes
38

With all due respect, Ms. Kim, based on the historical and anecdotal evidence we have (limited though it is), that speculation is less reliable than the Triglavians. Just to put things into perspective.

39

You know, there are a few fascinating foundational elements that Kim blithely ignores.

For instance, she appears just fine with the Drifters claiming elements of Caldari space as sovereign. Likewise, she appears to assume that Imperial loyalists will casually accept the assassination of Empress Jamyl I. Likewise, she appears to ignore the Caldari capital ship losses that occurred when Drifters began targeting Sisters-sponsored research facilities in the State and the various other empires.

Honestly, pilots, you may as well just ignore her on these matters.

Kim isn’t exactly known for rhetorical honesty.

4 Likes
40

Speaking about blithely ignorance, I see you poked your lying face here finally. I wonder whether you will be able to point out where exactly in the State is Drifter’s “sovereign” space?

Or should we just consider it as another “makotism”?