A hypothesis of Drifter-Jove identity

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
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According to Triglavian sources, their ancient enemy Azdaja, whom we can relate to Drifters, are the Second Jove Empire. That leads to a hypothesis of the identity relation between Drifters and Jove.

If this hypothesis will be true, then Drifters shall be our friends, and Triglavians are the enemy. So far encounters with both have shown to be directly opposite.

First, how friendly Triglavians are exactly? They clearly want the Nation destruction, that automatically puts them on the merited side. On the other hand, their relations with “deviant automata” (Rogue Drones) brings certain concern. Since they can’t put these gallentean abominations into uniquivocal “enemy” category, they certainly shall be treated with certain degree of suspicion. Yes, they offer us goods if we show merit in the combat, but we can’t forget the old saying, “Beware of Gallenteans bearing gifts”. Of course, they aren’t gallenteans, but offering the goods without actual trade certainly looks suspicious. So far we have lack in understanding their true motives and we really shall not assume they are as friendly as they are trying to represent themselves.

Drifters certainly don’t look frienly, they even attempted an invasion into Imperial space. But if we review the recent history, didn’t Empire tried to invade Jove first? Their invasion failed with a battle of Vak’Atioh, and Drifter invasion failed in Khanid space (if I am not mistaken). Shall we consider it 1:1? Other than that, Drifter behave in aggressive-defensive manner, and we shall not forget that it were capsuleers who began pillaging their constuctions and ships in Anoikis first. Their war is a defensive one, and their lack of communication with us could lead to conclusion that they do want us to leave them alone.

That they were showing interest in “Jovian Observatories” is yet another evidence towards the identity of Drifters with Jove, yet, of course, it is not sufficient to be sure in that.

And still, if we assume they are, we shall remember that Jove actually helped us to win our independence from Gallentean oppressors. They helped us and it’s honorable if we help them. How could you help, however, to someone who doesn’t want to talk with you? What we really could do is prevent attacks on them and treat them as Jove.

If they are truly the “Second Empire” of Jove, we must establish friendly relations with them. And if they aren’t and will keep attacking us, of course they shall be “extripated”.

Again, the lack of their communication with us shows they simply don’t need our help and probably could fight Triglavians themselves even without our help. But, maybe, it’s still us who need their help? Like one they offered us about a hundred years ago? Imagine that, with Drifter technology we will be able to finally secure the cluster from gallente-minmatarian menace, return the Peace and secure lives of our citizens.

How to make them help us, is even more difficult question. We certainly can’t just jump around their ships with huge billboards: “NOTICE US!” And offering them back their place in CONCORD will likely give no effect either.

So, what could we do? Especially if we can’t be sure they’re Jove at all?
My answer is simple:

Fight with Honor. Fight with Valor. Show your merit and determination, even with lack of technology. Show your dedication to Victory and to Protection of Citizens of the State and Caldari territories. Behave proudly and with dignity like Caldari should, and maybe then (if Drifters indeed are Jove), they will notice us, they will help us, they will sign peace with Amarr Empire and we will form new CONCORD, consisting of Jove Empire, Amarr Empire and Caldari State.

Together we will bring Law and Order to the Galaxy!

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There’s alot of flaws in your statements there.
Who would you trust the guys that doomsday your ship and steal your corpse or the guys that give you a challenging fight with new ships modules and oportunities for module enhancement

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Honestly? First ones. Because you expect from them a hostile action and it’s unlikely they will decieve you. I do, however, feel uneasy towards them after assasination of Empress Jamyl. I was there, I wanted to give them fight if they appear… but no, they just murdered her and warped away before we managed to do anything. That’s probably my main issue with them.

But about being doomsdayed? I myself never was. And I try to not poke them without need “to be doomsdayed and corpse-stolen”. Their hostility looks quite reactive, it doesn’t look they are looking for conflict, they’re rather protecting what is theirs and punishing those, who violate their sovereignty.

Quite clear and understandable intentions from my point of view.

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There is a saying on Matar: “Trust a known enemy over an uncertain friend”

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Wise words. It also explains fairly well about my concerns about a certain entity you are intimately familiar with…

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One strong proposition on the table, Diana-darling, is that both the Drifters and Triglavians are pieces of the Jovian Second Empire. The Drifters are associated with The Tyrants - the rulers, the Chancellor Heths as it were. The Triglavians opposed the Chancellor, bringing about the destruction of the state and three thousand years of oblivion.

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That is a very strong proposition indeed.

If that’s the case, these Triglavians will be the largest threat known to our cluster and we definitely need to find the way to contact The Tyrants, help them rebuild their Empire and destroy these Triglavians before they destroyed both them and… all of us.

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I do know that I find the Drifter weapon systems the most attractive of all weapon systems, and so their cause must necessarily be just.

I of course believe that the only way to bring Order to Mankind is to End Mankind and start over from scratch; but now that I think about it, the Drifters are little bits of information with high surface cohesion - which is a pretty good scratch to be starting over from.

You may be on to something, darling.

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I disagree on all counts.

So far, we know exponentially more about the Triglavian Collective and their intentions than we do about the Vigilant Tyrannos. And while the Tyrants have been aggressive-defensive, they have made no attempts at contact, and rather keep to themselves over communicating with anyone.

Let’s say for a moment they are Second-Empire Jove, or what’s left of them. Remember the Tyrants purpose in life was to reunite the Jovian people by any means necessary and we ourselves do not exactly qualify as Jovian. Yes we use the Jove’s technology, but that is about all we have in common with them.

Also, consider this. So far, the Vigilant Tyrannos’s only interests have been in Jovian technology, implants, and cadavers, and the acquisition of them, regardless of who is involved. And the Triglavian Collective is likely to be of Jovian descent (although we do not yet know from what branch) hence why the Drifters have taken great interest in fighting them. No longer do the Drifters want to scavenge dead and dying hulks for technology. Now they want to get it on tap, from the source.

A group of living people.

Back to what we know. The Triglavians do not like the Drifters or Sansha, and consider them profane. That is veritably good for us. They are on the fence about rogue drones, which is suspect, but they say that f the drones do not submit, they will be exterminated. So think of it like taming wild, invasive species to bring them under control and remove them from the non-native environment, and wiping them out if it can’t be done.

And as for us? They say they want us to run their gauntlets to prove worthy of their attention, and if we do not, we are simply not allowed in their space. Not profane, and necessary to subject or destroy, just not fit to visit them in any meaningful capacity.

It’s like a test, if all empires had their trials to prove capsuleers and citizens of another empire can be allowed within their borders, and not cause trouble.

Granted, I think the Triglavian Proving Grounds are a little odd to use as a basis for testing worthiness, but they are a different culture, and I’m sure they find something out of the things we do to prove worthy as actual grounds for trustworthiness.

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That’s sort of what I pointed at to.
How are you disagreeing while agreeing?

First: where do you get the idea that their purpose in life is to reunite the Jovian people?

If Ms. Noh’s proposition is correct, that would mean that Drifters are rulers of Jove and entitled to the technology, where Triglavians are the offenders and rebels, who brought in ruin to their great Empire. If that’s true…

On the other hand, we don’t know yet whether it is true at all, and if it is true whether Triglavians still maintained their affinity to destructive behavior, to freedom and similar destabilizing tendencies. If they are now indeed just a

who don’t look for causing havoc, then they should be protected from Drifters - their conflict was way in the past, and trying to “avenge” them for past deeds is simple bullying, it’s behaving like these Minmatars who are attacking the Empire because of the incident happened over seven hundred years ago!

But… it’s from Triglavians we hear that “ancient enemy must be extripated”, it means they still have destructive tendencies, and it’s they who could be bullies, taking into account they rebelled against their Rulers.

The core of the hypothesis is that the Drifters are identical to Jove. Would you call Jove profane?..
With profanity of Sansha there’s nothing to argue about, it’s self obvious.
But Jove? Rulers of the Second Empire? People who helped us in the fight against our ancient enemy - gallentean opppressors?

But what they do that for? Quite likely they want to use capsule pilots for some purpose.
Again, why didn’t they contact our respective governments? CONCORD?..
Why they didn’t contact those, who RULE us? OUR tyrants?

Nooo, they contacted us DIRECTLY, making us act on our own behalf missing those who shall control us.
That means they’re settling a discord between us and our own “tyrants”, and that already makes them the Enemy.

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I had begun to worry that Enemy Strike Commander Kim would not mention us. It was therefore a great relief to see that my fears were unfounded.

However, I agree that the Triglavians are behaving suspiciously. If they need help against the Tyrant forces, they should come out and say it. If they do not need help, they should come out and say that.

I do not agree that the rogue drones are an abomination, but that is a tangent.

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Not really going to argue, but I believe since you pointed it I have to give explanation why I… well… “insulted” them.

  1. Rogue drones were created by Gallentes.
  2. When they first were released, they wreaked havoc (as a manifestation of - probably in-built - desire to cause freedom), murdering a lot of people.
  3. They still use humans and human property as a mere “component materials”.
  4. They are the reason of CONCORD’s directive omega-one-five, prohibiting any further research or development of artificial intelligence.

You might disagree with my estimation, but that’s why I consider them abominations.

But even if they say it, shall we help them or the Tyrants?
We don’t know a lot, but if they were the reason the Second Empire collapsed, if they have so ingrained chaotic behavior - then it’s they who are the main threat and we really should help the Tyrants instead.

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Well, I cannot take credit for the proposition that the Drifters and Triglavians are factions of the Second Empire. Uriel proposed it, and I think it is either correct, or at least very likely correct. He did not characterize the Triglavians as traitors who brought down the Empire, that is my spin, but of course it is correct.

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I disagree on all counts.

So far, we know exponentially more about the Triglavian Collective and their intentions than we do about the Vigilant Tyrannos. And while the Tyrants have been aggressive-defensive, they have made no attempts at contact, and rather keep to themselves over communicating with anyone.
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Let me rephrase that. I disagree that joining the Drifters over the Triglavians is a wise move, let alone one we should endorse.

I can’t remember where, but the Tyrants - original of the Second Empire - were classical tyrants, and were tasked with reuniting the Jove people, whether they wanted to be reunited with the Empire or not. This is a bit of a grey area, I admit, but the Tyrants have not been in power since the Second Empire, since they do not exist in the Third Empire.

So really, they make references to the Second Empire, but who are they? Really, who has put on the mask?

And that’s it, we don’t know who the Drifters are, and they’ve shown no interest in explaining anything surrounding their condition or behavior, merely doing without regard to their surroundings.

If it was true, then they would have made at least one statement on the matter, as the ancient Tyrants made announcements of their claims to a group of people before the people decided if they wanted to be subjected or come quietly, er, paraphrasing here.

While I have stances on the Amarr and Matari situation, something to remember is the Triglavian announcement to the contemporary New Eden cluster several months to a year after we identified Drifters engaging the Triglavians in their territories of abyssal deadspace, not the other way around. For several weeks sweeps were conducted to find any trace of them in Drifter fortification systems, and found nothing until Drust emerged with that Vedmak. After the Drifters engaged first, the Triglavians responded with a formal declaration of war, condemning the Drifters’ violation of their space.

Consider this, the Caldari State’s secession from the Federation. The Federation clearly wanted to maintain order and retain the Caldari as a member, but when the Caldari formed independent territories, they likely “locally exterminated or ejected” Federation members to enforce their sovereignty from the Federation. “Extirpation” is not just local extermination, it is also removal from an area, or as we know it, “I’m going to kick your butt out of my space”. That’s less “destructive tendencies”, and more enforcement of sovereignty from the Vigilant Tyrannos.

“Join us!”

“No thanks.”

“Join us or we go to war until you submit!”

“No. Get out.”

An extremely simple version, but effective in conveying the meaning.

No, but their methods of enveloping the Triglavians into the Drifters’ control or somesuch is not acceptable, and repeated attempts against their desires to be put under the Vigilant Tyrannos’s rule is not remotely acceptable, and insulting.

Remember that while many capsuleers are state/government employed or endorsed, many more are purely independent from the empires unless they enter their territory and have to be subject to their laws as visitors, and the Triglavians are likely perceiving us as less of a collective and more as a group with differing ideals - as we are discussing now - and are offering for individuals to visit and see what they have to offer.

And as for what they want? Discourse, of some sort, and in all likelihood, an offer to join them as allies against their enemy, with payment and access to rare resources only found in the abyss. They’re employing us as mercenaries to assist them, but only after we prove we are strong enough to be of any use.

We are not going against the empires - against CONCORD, maybe, but they haven’t always had our best interests at heart, and have actively spoken against the Alpha Clone program, of which I was a member of, and trained to enforce Caldari independence against the then invading Drifters into high security space, and later into low sec as a member of the militia against the Gallente - we’re offering our services as hired guns.

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Please be appeased, Enemy Strike Commander. I agree there exists a connection between the Federation and rogue drones. We must accept that the outbreak started in our territory. Rogue drones also favor a Federation battleship hull. We should show leadership on this issue by making every attempt to resolve the situation.

However, I am becoming more familiar with the precursor civilizations.

I believe a large concentration of rogue drone activity exists within the Okkelen Constellation, Enemy Strike Commander. I realize this is our fault.

However, tying back to your point about the potentially duplicitous nature of the Triglavians, if that people were to discover a way to work with the rogue drones, the Okkelen Constellation would become an appealing target. This may therefore represent an opportunity for cooperation between two ancient enemies against the threat presented by a third party.

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Understandable and obvious. I was just assuming if the offered hypothesis is correct, the most obvious choice will be unwise.

What do you put under term of “classical” tyrant, however? A ruler? Or a tyrants like gallenteans? Because if they are just a tyrannical rulers, it means they’re better than those whom they are ruled and we definitely should find a way to contact them and interest them in ourselves. If they are oppressors like gallenteans - it means they dominate other nations, subjugate and conquer… but so far we don’t see them behaving like gallenteans, except their attack on the Kingdom - which was repelled rather fast. And they do behave agressively-defensive rather than aggressively-expansionistic and subjugating. That means they are not tyrants like gallenteans, but tyrants as merited rulers.

Well, if you don’t remember where, what made you make such a claim?..

According to the hypothesis - Jove.
We don’t really know who they are, I am just offering a hypothesis of their identity with Jove based on Triglavian data. I offer neither proof nor refute to the hypothesis itself, rather contemplate how to act if the statement will be found correct. It’s nice to prepare ourselves for different outcomes instead of blindly jumping on Triglavian gifts and going on extripation crusades against peaceful tyrannical nations. Don’t you think so?

And yes, it’s true. The Jove whom we met first were simply doing stuff with us, observing, offering us capsules, fighting off the Empire without giving much explanations. They are still pretty much a mystery to us - even with them creating CONCORD, they mostly were simply ignoring us.

IF they were tyrants in the sense of “oppressors and subjugators like Gallenteans” - sure. They would jump out, demanding: “OBEY OR DIE!” Or like… “Join our Federation or be bombed!” Instead, they look indeed more like proper Tyrants - exalted Rulers (I am not sure of what, but the name Tyrant implies they rule over something).

That certainly could be the case. After all, we have our own “ancient enemy” that shall be “extripated” - namely, Gallente Federation. And it really sounds damn familiar to “The Federation must be destroyed”. Yes, it’s quite likely. But again, we simply lack the information about what each side is fighting for, what exactly Drifters are doing in Abyssal space.

I can only make a wild guess, that Triglavians could be responsible for Caroline’s star that incapacitated Jove Directorate, and now former Jove Empire came in to restore the order. Well, it would be great if that would be true, don’t you think so? Though the thought that Triglavians could be capable of creating mass destruction of THAT magnitude is a bit unnerving.

That is… certainly not the case. According to historical records, the Federation was not maintaining the order, but started to change their laws in order to capture our colonies they found.

That is quite likely, though Drifters don’t really behave in a classical occupant/invader sense.
And again, unlikely they will ever tell us themselves what are they doing in the Abyssal space.

Well, that’s what you would expect from a Gallentean - but I haven’t seen that sort of behavior from Drifters yet.

Do we have any evidences to that rather than simple presence and fighting between the groups?

And yet, even the most independent of capsuleers are under CONCORD’s control.

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Rare though it is, I find myself agreeing with Ms Kim. The Drifters are straight forward, don’t bother them and they won’t bother you.

The Triglavians on the other hand engage in Machiavalien schemes to test us and everyone/thing else. Someone mentioned that we know more about them. Whilst we marvel in our brilliance decrypting their messages, remember that we only know what they wish us to know. This could be a classic disinformation excercise.

Bear in mind also that when the Drifters turned up they appeared to be fleeing something, and searching for resources any way possible. I believe they had already encountered the Triglavians, and we may be next in line for the same treatment.

Lastly, just because we think the Drifters aren’t communicating doesn’t prove they aren’t, we may just be blind to their method.

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About the Triglavians we don’t exactly know if they are ‘alive’ as in flesh and blood living beings yet.Concord has not yet released any information on the crew of the vedmak class cruiser they had in custody but so far we have strong evidence of AIs being part of triglavian society we just don’t know if it’s a mix of living and AI coexisting or just AIs and transhumans existing as digital form in a construct like the Sleepers do.

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While I would normally be keen to say “Better the devil you know” (a variation on that Minmatar proverb from earlier)… the Triglavians are more relevant now. I’m not saying we should trust them, not yet, but we would be fools, one and all, to discard that possibility. The Triglavians have technology nobody else came up with, territory nobody else can reliably access, and most importantly, information about New Eden’s history that we have no other source for… and, more importantly, they’re willing to let us have it, if we’re smart enough to figure out what they’re saying.

The Drifters have given us nothing but aggression. We have given the Triglavians almost nothing but the same, yet still they are willing to reach out a hand. This is unprecedented among the threats we Capsuleers face, so to play on another proverb… we owe it to ourselves, before we bite the hand the Triglavians are reaching out, to ascertain whether they are reaching out to strike us, or to feed us.

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I could not have said it better myself.