A letter from me, to CCP

Let me just say that I appreciate everyone’s responses to this, and everyone’s point of view. I do love a good, calm discussion between people whose viewpoints may not necessarily agree. It’s quite relaxing. I am of the mind that this is how forums were meant to be used, which may seem obvious but it is not often how things go, seemingly more often descending into pure contradiction, responding to tone, argumentum ad hominem, and name-calling. (Admittedly, I am guilty of this from time to time, and I always regret it afterwards.)

Back to the topic. Really, the only thing I feel I can add to the discussion right now is to talk about @Etain_Darklightner_Agittain’s point about what makes money for CCP.

I largely agree with this point. In order to ensure the long life of the community, CCP and by extension the game, yes CCP must do what they can to keep making money; but at what cost? This is something I think many at CCP must struggle with from time to time as I am sure they love the game for what it is, not for how much money it makes them. This creates a conflict though, since due to the nature of how it is operated, in order to keep the game going, it must make them money.

This results in them having to tread a very fine line, the extremes on either side being a work of passion where they do what truly makes the game better regardless of how much money it brings, and a pure money grab operation like so many other online games have turned into. In regards to the former, it could be argued that a truly great game will make money, arguably longer than the latter; in regards to the latter, it could be argued that higher short-term profits could allow them to put more effort in to making the game truly great.

However, overheat your prop mod for long enough and it will burn out.

Consider an online game, Game X. It has items that originate exclusively from cash purchases that also offer an advantage in some way, an advantage that couldn’t otherwise be gotten just by playing the game, for instance getting more XP at double the free rate. Let’s assume that it is a good, fun game that happens to have this aforementioned property. At first, many people play the game either freely or with these bought advantages. But as time goes on, the edge this bought advantage provides becomes more amplified. (One could argue that the players who are paying for the advantage deserve better progress simply due to the fact that they are paying, which keeps the game servers alive.) However, the free players vastly outnumber the paying players. After a longer period of time, still feeling completely outmatched by the paying players despite vastly greater numbers, free players start getting frustrated, giving up and leaving, perhaps moving on to a different but similar game. Of course, some stay and pay to get that same edge, boosting the company’s revenue for a time, but the vast majority still leave, leaving a small, passionate community. The game now has greatly reduced population and the players who still remain will take notice of this. They tell their friends about the game, and for a time their friends join in and some stay, boosting the population a bit, but again, the vast majority still get frustrated and leave. At first, they assume that another wave of free players will come, they hope. This doesn’t happen precisely due to the players who left telling their friends about the game. With a dearth of other people to play with or against, even the paying players start leaving, some going to similar games, which means they are not paying for this game. The game’s population is further reduced, exacerbating the problem. Eventually, there aren’t enough paying players to keep the servers alive and the game gets shut down. What seemed like a great way to pull in more money (on paper), didn’t actually turn out that way. This was arguably a poor business model.

Consider another online game, Game Y. It is a subscription-based game, meaning in order to play the game at all you must first pay for a subscription. All subscribers are equal, they all gain XP at the same rate, all have the potential to access to all the same items, but there’s no getting around the fact that the game is locked behind this lone paywall. At first, a small number of people play the game, just enough to keep the servers (or singular server) going, because many are put off by the paywall. This creates a small but very passionate and close-knit community. They adamantly tell their friends about the game, and some outright refuse because of the paywall, but some give it a try. Of those, some leave, but many stay as they find the like the game, but more importantly they feel like they belong to the community. They tell their friends, and so on; slowly, but steadily, the game’s population increases, building a larger but still passionate and close-knit community. The company keeps upgrading the game to add value to the game by adding what is best for their players. The players, of course, love this and only spread more positive word about the game, building the community faster and faster. The company is able to upgrade and expand their operations, continuing to grow for decades, perhaps indefinitely. Yes, it still remains locked behind a paywall, but the game is so highly praised that many find the price to be worth it. This is arguably a good business model.

It boils down to this: Game X encourages the company behind it to engage in commission salesman-like behavior, driven to just sell, sell, sell without regard to the actual quality of the product, as long as the sales are going up this week, but when word gets around that their products are of low quality, their sales ultimately wither (and they might wonder why); Game Y encourages the company behind it to create a very high-quality product, because even though they get the same amount per subscription, word gets around that their product is better and their subscription numbers will go up, perhaps indefinitely (and they know exactly why).

Apply these two models to EVE, both now and in the past, and come to your own conclusions as which is better and which has gotten EVE (and by extension, CCP) farther over the 15 years it’s been around. As for me, I would prefer Game Y, and would gladly pay the subscription for the rest of my life if it were a good game.

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Only if you purposely gave it an STD.

Ship Transmitted Destruction, of course.

–Gadget urges all to practice safe EvE

Eve has had a p2w element since before PLEX (when it was code that was traded). Many of you arguing it’s not p2w just because the game is more brutal than most… is completely irrelevant.

Two players start the game at same time (say they are identical clones, with identical experiences and abilities). Each plays the same amount, in the same ways, learning the same things. Then, one of them buys PLEX with cash and sells for a bunch of ISK. The one with all the ISK is officially winning (compared to his clone twin), and he payed to do so.

It’s been this way for as long as I can remember… get over it?

Yes and I’m sure your elite skill venture was vital to the fleet’s composure. :roll_eyes:

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Skill points don’t matter, so why are people buying them ? Because they matter a lot.

There’s no difference between a pilot with 80 mill. SP
and a pilot with 30 mill SP the one with 30 mill can still win ? Both true and false.
It might be true if the pilots trained into frigates and cruiser skills they can be on the same lvl and any of them could win, skills behind keys can definitely determine the outcome.
But if these pilots trained into capital ships (carriers) for example the 30 mill. Pilot would probably loose no matter how god a pilot he/she is.

The Bazaar was always there to get pilots that already trained a lot of SP. This is true.
But the pilots for sale in the Bazaar still spent all that time training those skills, they did not get them in 10 minutes, although the player that purchase a pilot can be 10 minutes old or les.

Turning plex into SP and ISK is pay to win ?
Sometimes it is, sometimes it’s not.
But if you have a lot of ISK you can easily replace lost ships/assets in a war and probably win, if you don’t have ISK you can’t and you will probably loose the war.
That is definitely P2W.

Someone has to do the time to make the Isk, learn the skill, build the ships and modules with the minerals mined by some poor smuck. The is a scifi game, learning is what it is. It’s all good.

This. Saving time is not really pay-to-win. Some people don’t have alot of time, but they have alot of cash. Others have time and not alot of cash. PLEX and skill-injectors allow these two types of players to meet up and make exchanges that make each other better off. That is it.

The first one is easy (maybe). The second not so much. The third even less so. The FC often assumes quite a bit of prior tacit knowledge on the part of those in his fleet, especially if it is a capital fleet, which is what you are talking about.

But doesn’t have the experience and tacit knowledge that the “vets” have acquired and there is a good chance it will be his capital that is caught and burnt down…which won’t endear him with the capital FC. In fact, he may actually be weeded out in various alliances based on his “age”.

But it is. Knowing what to do when the FC gives commands is important. Will a week old character know what align to X means? Will he even have his broadcast window open? Sounds pretty basic to a player who has been in the game a few years, but to a 1 week old? Hell I didn’t know much at all about how ships and movement worked in the first month let alone the first week. But this tacit knowledge comes with skill injectors? I don’t think so.

And he isn’t “winning because he spent money” but also because he has a good FC and other players there. In short, you really don’t have much of an argument.

Literally? No, no you didn’t. But you sure as heck implied it with,

Especially when considering you were replying to a post talking about P2W. This is an incredibly intellectually dishonest response.

The injector, and skill extractor system is claimed to be the solution for new players “catching up” to end playersthe solution would of been to reduce the requirement for t2 ships from level 5, to level 3 or 4 or similar changes to modules

ERGO, INJECTORS WERE NOT THE EASIEST WAY TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. MORE SPECIFICALLY THEY WERE NOT THE EASIEST IN TERMS OF DEVELOPMENT RESOURCES (HOW LONG IT TOOK THE DEVS TO MAKE THE CHANGE) AND THEY WERE NOT THE SOLUTION THAT WAS BEST FOR EVE.

to those idiots who make stupid claims like “time is not pay to win”

ENT. full stop. Wrong!
As a designer i can tell you this mechanic is GRAY AREA. IT CAN BE, OR IS NOT PAY TO WIN.

Example.

you play a game, you die, your ships need repair time. You have to wait 3 hours to attack again, or instantly coin to go fight again. thus the one who can instantly reattack gains a significant advantage, even more then “item buff” pay to win transactions.

So stop saying its not pay to win, because your statement is WRONG

@OP

THEY WILL NOT REMOVE INJECTORS, OR SKILL EXTRACTORS. THIS WAS A CHOICE MADE BY THE MANAGEMENT OF CCP, NOT THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM. THIS WAS PURELY MADE FOR MONEY, AND NOTHING BUT MONEY. THIS DROVE UP PLEX TO FORCE PEOPLE TO NOT ONLY PAY TO CATCH UP, BUT PAY TO PLAY THE GAME. THIS WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT GET REMOVED.

sorry, just beating a dead horse dead. the best you can do is make suggestions to release some of the inflation, or make them more impactful (like 1 time per character use, or x5-10 training rate for a month for players under x skill points).

Willful ignorance to promote your agenda.

Don’t ever change, Teckos.

Well, we can see you are now out of ammunition at this point.

You have written a lengthy screed on how skill injectors are P2W then hide behind a semantic defense. Impressive. :roll_eyes:

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Do injectors allow you to pull ahead of a player that never buys them? Say I’ve played since 2003. Can you inject a skill that I, as an omega, cannot use? Can you inject any skills higher? No, of course not. You don’t gain an advantage by injecting. You only save time.

You can, can you? Or… more accurately, you can offer us your opinion on an ultimately unrelated subject. There is no time-gating on playing in Eve. You don’t have respawn timers, and you can’t buy time reductions (edit: on things such as red/blue timers, debuffs, etc). That has absolutely nothing to do with the time-gating on SP. We’re talking about Eve here, not “every version of micro-transaction that saves you time in any and every game”.

So much for that grey area… sounds pretty much one colour to you. See above though, you are the one that is wrong.

Again that is not true. Time in eve gives a direct advantage. higher Accuracy, more damage, more survivability, and more ship access. This is totally not an accurate claim.

Lets put it another way
if two toons start today, equal knowledge of eve, and one injects and the other does not, are they equal? Hell no. Even with equal level knowledge, the one injecting wins, hands down.

Sigh
You do realize that the entire progression in eve, is a time gate, right? The stupidity of people on eve forums talking out of their back side for desperate attention.

Im done. /ignored

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Wasn’t there some idiot back when injectors first came who maxed his char up with RL cash in a couple of days ?

Has it helped him win any fights ? Probably not …

Has there been a growing overuse of capital blobs in lowsec ?

Yes, yes there has … cough SnuffedOut cough

STOP! HAMMERTIME!

*grabs hammer*

*places screw on wood*

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

Screws. They’re just weirdly deformed nails.

:blush:

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That was the guy who funded World War Bee, also known as the Casino Wars.

Quite the ironic statement, considering you made a thread begging for isk because you’re a poor sob.

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@CCP_Falcon

Can you please stop the harassment that Solstice Projekt is doing?

he is following me on all my threads, to troll.

Your own thread.
This thread, where I saw your comment.

What a strong man you are.

I give up! I give up! Please forgive me, oh mighty warrior!
Forgive me for speaking the truth!

The pair of you need to knock it off, or you’ll both be taking a long vacation from posting.

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