A letter from me, to CCP

What “sideline”???

You may not remember, but as a noob you would have been thrilled to show up in a big fleet in your Condor or Atron to just get tackle on x boat and be with the cool kids.
Everyone knew it would take some time to get into the big capitals ships if any but that would also mean, you have to be there and spend $$$$$$$ for all those long months / years you had to be subscribed to be able to sit in them.

Now you have 2 day old noobs (hipster millienials) that get bored after 2 weeks yoloing everything with pirate faction titans and nothing to get excited about anymore and anything less than a tech 93 titan would be “beneath” them.

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Oh, PLEX is next on my list of “other things I want to talk about”. Baby steps. :stuck_out_tongue:

The set of claims that I’m getting from the other side of this discussion (and correct me if I’m wrong) are that,

  1. SP injection removes the time gate, which is a good thing.
  2. One pilot injecting SP is not going to make a difference in a big fight.
  3. SP doesn’t matter, player skill does.
  4. SP trading doesn’t matter, since you could buy capital pilots long before extractors and injectors came along.
  5. Buying SP doesn’t let you get anything that you couldn’t get just by playing the game.

First, I’ll declare some things:

  • When I say skills, I’m referring to the skill that the player has at playing the game, not their character’s skills.
  • I’ll refer to character skills as skillpoints.

Now let’s look at these one by one.

Claim 1. SP Injection removes the time gate, which is a good thing.

Firstly, this is not a good thing. Time spent is what gives things meaning. It’s what made the capital, black ops, marauder, jump freighter, and industrial command ship pilots of yore command respect. Any of these pilots was a very valuable asset for a corp or alliance to have. They spent YEARS not only training their skillpoints, but honing their skills. This is something worthy of respect. But if you buy the skillpoints and don’t have the skill to back it up, it just shows you have a larger bank account (which could be easily gotten by buying PLEX and selling it), and a lack of patience and drive to actually achieve a level of skill. I don’t know about you, but this wouldn’t prompt me to look at that person and say “Wow, they’ve put a lot of effort into making such an achievement.” This affects the game less and more the community, equally important in my mind. What this turns into is a bunch of kids running around with shiny toys, yes losing them, but just buying more by selling PLEX bought with mommy’s credit card and all the while, more likely than not, spreading immature vitriol around community. I’ll expand more on the first half of this point in point 5.

Claim 2. One pilot injecting SP is not going to make a difference in a big fight.

On the surface, this is completely true. One lone pilot in a blob will not make any noticeable difference unless he’s flying something big, like a capital. However, what happens when you have 10 injected pilots (a squad)? 20? 100? That small, unremarkable difference becomes amplified by the number of people that have it. Consider a fleet of 100 ships. One pilot has injected skillpoints and has increased his fire rate by 5%. This means that the fleet, as a whole, has 0.05% more fire rate. Not much of a difference, the fight could still go either way. Now let’s change it a little. Let’s say that 25 of the 100 pilots have got %5 higher fire rate. Now the fleet fires 1.25% faster on average. This is a MASSIVE increase when compared to what it was before. That’s, all other things being equal, 1.25% more DPS. This is enough to potentially turn the tide, though unlikely. If 75% of the pilots have %5 higher ROF, that’s 3.75% on average. Definitely enough to potentially make a difference, and solely because one side has people who are willing to throw cash at their character sheets, not because they spent the time to actually train those skillpoints the old fashioned way. The result would be the same, but cheapens the experience to “Oh, they weren’t genuinely better, they just had more cash to throw at their skillpoints”.

Claim 3. SP doesn’t matter, player skill does.

This is very arguably wrong. Consider a bog-standard T1 frigate, with T1 fittings, and a T2 assault frigate with T2 fittings. For whatever reason, the player flying the T1 simply never invested the time into training for T2 frigates or T2 fittings, but has spent a LOT of time flying his frigate so really knows how to use it. The player flying the T2 hasn’t really practiced at all with flying frigates like this, so doesn’t know what all to do with it, he merely has the skillpoints for it. These two players run into each other in low-sec whilst roaming, and fight. Why the T1 would engage a T2, I don’t know. You wouldn’t do that if you had sense. But for the sake of argument, they fight. Even though the T1 pilot is quite skilled, the T2 pilot will very likely win because he has a ship with vastly superior capabilities that, even under-utilized, crushed his opponent’s T1. In this instance, SP makes a very large difference, whether trained or injected.

Claim 4. SP trading doesn’t matter, since you could buy capital pilots long before extractors and injectors came along.

This is also, on the surface, true. You could buy pilots with certain skills with either ISK or (perhaps less legally so though I’m not sure) with RL money. What changed is the fact that cultivating a pilot with marketable skills worth a lot took the same amount of time as it would anyone else. A pilot with common skills was worth much less on the market, since those skills didn’t require a large time investment. But, say, a capital pilot would take years to make. Now, you can buy injectors which came from many difference pilots’ skillpoints, and combine them into one pilot who now has more skillpoints, potentially more than any of the pilots that made the injectors, nearly instantly, and that can now do things that the pilots that made those injectors didn’t have to sacrifice. To make a capital pilot, one simply needs enough ISK to inject the requisite skillpoints and the pilots making the injectors do not have to be anything remotely close to a capital pilot; they only need to give up 500K skillpoints from anywhere in their character sheet. This effectively cuts down the time required to get a certain level of skill points, due to parallelization i.e., dividing the large amount of work up into smaller pieces that take less time individually, then work on all those pieces simultaneously. Think about the way manufacturers increase their output per unit of time by using multiple assembly lines.

Claim 5. Buying SP doesn’t let you get anything that you couldn’t get just by playing the game.

True, but again, it removes the time component, and gives you the edge over your peers (meaning people who are roughly at the same skill level as you) that you might not necessarily have until the roughly the same time they did, assuming that all your peers are training towards the same things as you. You could get the skillpoints the old fashioned way, but instead you use a resource that others don’t have and (more importantly) no one can take from you within the game to give yourself a boost. That breaks the balance in so many ways, it’s making my head hurt just thinking about it. This resource is unassailable, unlike say, the tech moons of yore, where a group of null players held most of them and therefore had that resource that nobody else had and would have been immensely difficult to take, but it was assailable in that anyone with enough players and skill could have, in theory, taken that resource, within the game.

Sorry for the wall of text. I like to try to be as thorough as possible with my arguments.

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Opinion discarded.

It’s not about one person injecting. It’s about people injecting cap alts.

(I take it back didn’t fully read)

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I think you misunderstand. That is not my opinion, I am providing a counter-point to that opinion. I wrote that whole block of text refuting that opinion. If that wasn’t clear, what can I change to make it more clear?

It was fine. People see what they’re going to see. Not much you can do about it.

OP is a dreamer who disregards what the majority wants.

My bad saw that and stopped reading. Rude post retracted. :smiley:

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Hey, no sweat! I do it too sometimes. :slight_smile:

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Your fc is ■■■■, lul.

Skill injectors, alpha clones, Abysmal space … the slippery slope of a doomed game.

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I haven’t talked about Abyssal Deadspace, because I know really nothing about it other than the fact that it’s more or less where those weird Triglavian ships come from. Much like I don’t know anything about incursions, because I’ve never done them (and have no intention of doing so for the time being). Though, at a glance, I don’t see the problem there since it adds content. Though why they couldn’t use the existing precursor empires (Yan-Jung, Talocan, Sleeper, and Takmahl) is something I wonder from time to time.

Skillpoints mean nothing, knowledge of the game’s mechanics is everything!

I am an old returning player (05-09) and absolutely love the fact that I can inject skillpoints! My life is a whole lot more complicated than it used to be and I dont have the same amount of gaming time as I used to. Last thing I want to do is log into a video game to “work”. I simply want to log in and jump right into the action! Injecting skill points has allowed me to play the game/fly the ships at the level I choose too and doesnt give me an advantage whatsoever. I can still lose it all just as easy as anyone else!

My .02

Skillpoints mean something.

I think whether Eve is a pay-to-win is a bit of a semantic argument. It can’t really be pay-to-win since there is no real winning but it is definitely pay-to-advance or pay-for-advantage. What you can fly is key to any PvP encounter as is what you can afford to fly. Yes, it matters less in large engagements where individual actions/power is diluted and SRPs are picking up the tab, but anyone who tells you SP or what you fly doesnt matter is being disingenuous.

SP are highly desirable for the advantages that gives you in a fight. As is the ability to upship to something your opponent can’t afford to field. Sure, you can still lose with these advantages to a better player, hard counter, or bigger blob, but stacking the odds in your favour is how good players win fights and injecting skills or blinging ships is one way to gain advantage.

While arguably SP and ISK isn’t the end-all/be-all for PvP given all the factors at play, it is much harder to make that case for the other side of the coin - resources generation. PvE and mining income is largely determined by SP and ISK and this point given how min/maxed everything is. The higher SP and best equipped player will more efficiently earn income as will the better trained and better funded industrialist. And given how these scale with multiple characters, it is completely wrong to claim SP don’t matter - it’s all that matters. Whomever has the most characters, with the most SP, will outcompete anyone else who spends the same amount of effort.

The thing is though it has been like this for a long time. The line was crossed when CCP first introduced PLEX and allowed you to pay people with real-world currency to give you in-game resources. We drifted further into pay-for-advantage when CCP okayed character trading which allowed SP to also change hands. Skill Extractors have made this easier and enabled massive parallel conversion of PLEX into SP, but fundamentally nothing has changed.

I think the game is suffering from the acceleration of general imbalance Skill Extractors enabled. They have made the game harder to balance and increased the power gap between the multiboxing veterans and their armies of specialized alts, and the new entrant, not decreased it. But ultimately this game was already one where you could buy advantage by purchasing SP or in-game assets over your opponents if you choose.

Thankfully, at least for the most part, there is enough uncertainty that this hasn’t broken the game. I do think though it is straining a bit now, but that may just be more the result of 15+ years of power accumulation by the established players that the devs haven’t totally been able to deal with.

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Well thought out response. Not that you needed me to say that.

There are a few people stating that it removes the time constraint to train up a skill, by purchasing a skill injector.

If you’re rich enough, i.e. have disposable income you can throw at a game for digital rewards, the time wall is largely non-existent. However the skill points still need to be “farmed” to be sold on the market, to the richest bidder.

The skill points still require in game time to farm up. Those old school players who set themselves up to multi box by ratting or mining in null sec, with multiple characters have it made both for acquiring the plex through the market and by selling skill injectors off on the market for ISK to buy more in game time.

The cycle isnt going to stop. CCPs income per year, I saw on another thread, is something like 10.5 million a year. The business model is effective for the companies longevity. This means money to the owners of the company.

Money talks and ■■■■■■■■ walks. While all of these posts provide valid in game reasons as to why this type of mechanic sucks in game to the long time fan base it fails to address one thing. Money made.

I’ve thought about this, alot. When PLEX became a tradable commodity in the game, it changed the dynamic such that people who played the game 24/7 multi boxing rattng carriers or mini mining fleets could play for free, but work (if you could call it that) had to be done in game to make the ISK to buy off the market from the cash sellers that purchased the license. This later opened up the character bazaar, which was a logical follow through given there were “internet gaming companies” illegally making profits off of the intellectual property by selling, for cash, said intellectual property to players looking for short cuts to get to their in game goals. Rather than lose out on that, CCP took innovative steps to ensure that if such a thing was inevitably going to happen, they might as well be the gate keepers and put it into the game themselves to maximize their profits. No I’m not a fanboy, its basic economics, you either sit by and watch someone else capitalize off your work or you do what CCP did and increase your margin, unsavory as it is.

I, myself, have a character that I’ve on and off subbed with throughout the years since 2009. The answers to these problems dont lie in identifying the issues that cause the discontent in the community, that’s a known quantity, identify a way to increase profits to the developers that will do away with the current issue. This will, in turn, get the parent company to light a fire under CCPs butt to change things.

I dont have the solution, yet. It might be an impossible task, it’s a damned sight better than sitting here and complaining about known quantities, however, and bickering amongst ourselve without searching for meaningful solutions. The solution to the issue has to make more money than the current existing model, or it wont change.

Sorry for the wall of text, the argument is a meaningful one. This is an issue that isnt just present in this game but in most MMOs that are out now. This model works, very well, for bringing in additional profits above and beyond what any normal subscription will ever do.

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uh… skillpoints does not make a good pilot.

Case in point: my PVP toon managed to not only whore on a 22bill nid kill a few weeks ago, it also managed to be the last ship standing in the same fleet comp after we got dropped by PL AND Goons. AND I managed to fly it all the way back to Jita.

That was a minimally skilled pilot in a Venture with a 600k ISK fit.

It ain’t the size of the hammer, it’s how you hit the nail.

Well my post just after yours is pointless as it states the same premise. Oh well.

The power vacuum you identified as your final point has real world implications. There are innovative ways you can get around this issue, to harass them. You’ve just got to exploit the system you have.

The game isnt unbalanced. If you take two, equally skilled omega pilots and stick them into two of the exact same T1 ship, with the same skills itll come down to who has the best UI skill versus pilot skill points. I think that would he a funner fight than sitting in a blob being told how to hold your dick and which direction to piss in the wind so the targeted group gets sprayed, optimally. Blobs have their place, certainly.

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Nah. If two builders show up to build something, one the first day on the job with a small hammer and a seasoned one with automatic nail driver, it would be no contest. Sure, if the job requires screws, maybe the builder with the better hammer would lose because he forgot his screwdriver, but that doesn’t mean the smart money should be on the better trained or equipped builder.

As I said, in PvP the advantages of SP and gear don’t always determine the outcome (thankfully!) but that does not mean they aren’t big advantages. In fact, that’s kind of the point of a persistent game universe: to gain skills and wealth to improve your chances in future fights and making that accumulation part of the game meaningful. It’s why SP are so highly desired, basically by everyone. If SP were useless like so many like to prentend, no one would care about them or pay so much for them.

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They build a bar to have a place to drink. :sunglasses:

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Whoring doesn’t mean you actively caused the death of said ship

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This.

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