Sure. Taken in isolation. Yes. Two players where one has more SP and thus a better version of the ship and equipment the other player has will usually result in the player with more SP “winning”, assuming similar knowledge and skill in terms of flying your ship, etc.
But these are not the only factors. Suppose the low SP player brings a friend. Suppose the low SP player opts for a different ship?
This discussion is so open ended it is literally turning into nothing other than a circle-jerk.
If you don’t like SP injectors…fine, quit. GTFO and can I have your stuff. These things are not going anywhere for a long, long time. SP injectors and before that the character bazaar also serve the purpose of reducing “illegal” RMT around characters and also allows CCP to pick up some extra cash.
So…if you don’t like. Shut down your client. Uninstall and really “win EVE”.
Nah, you’re just wrong. And whenever you’re wrong, you start throwing out irrelevant side issues as red herrings, and then end it by saying ‘quit and give me your stuff’ to whoever you’re disagreeing with.
It’s not a very admirable discussion style.
See, any side issues you toss on here just lead back to the primary fact, which you call a ‘circle jerk’ but which is in fact simply reinforcing Elena’s point.
“Suppose the low SP player brings a friend. Suppose the low SP player opts for a different ship?”
Suppose the P2W guy decides to bring a friend, who has also P2W’d himself into a superior ship and higher skills. Suppose the high SP player also opts for a different ship, of which he has a higher selection, because he P2W’d the skills for them, and he has them available, because he P2W’d the ISK for them, and he doesn’t really care if he loses it anyway, because he can just P2W more Plex for more ISK and more skills.
Every counter to this argument revolves around “well you can’t buy player combat skill” (true of every game, and therefore irrelevant and having nothing to do with P2W), or “but the non-P2W can do things differently” - which the P2W guy can also do, except faster and better because he can just pay for whatever he needs and have it right away.
EVE is already more P2W than any game I am aware of out there, and those who pay are denying it just as hard as they can because they like it that way. They just don’t like admitting it.
It’s your lucky day! If you’re looking for amazing prices on Geckos, you need look no further than Jita! A discreet inquiry in local there and you should be hooked up!
No, No…it’s fine, no need to thank me so much, just glad to help.
Because we are dealing with a complex and dynamic situation, not some static thing where we count up something like SP and determine the winner.
Yes, because it is a complex and dynamic system. Lots of things are in play. Hell even SP are more complicated than you or Elena seem to understand. A high SP player who does alot of mining and building may be little to no match or a moderate SP player who happens to catch the miner/builder. Because high SP is also dependent on what skills the player has trained.
Depends again on how the player “paying to win” allocates his SP. If he is dumb and allocates so that he can get into a BS thinking bigger = better he might find himself in for a rather rude surprise.
And you’ll note I already agreed that if we limit things to say a t1 ship and it’s t2 variant along with t1 vs. t2 modules, the player with more SP will have an advantage. However, this is unicorn. It is very rare in game for this to be the situation. Worrying about unicorns is foolish.
I’m against the skill extrac/inject but not for the same reason when they implemented it they sell it as a way for new player to save some day of training, now everyone known it’s a absolute ■■■■■■■■ only the old player can buy it/sell it it’s a rich market with a negative impact for new player cause in order to sell some skill inject those old player make a “skill farm” and those skill farm buy plex making the price raise for nothing
i don’t think skill inject are P2W buying plex with real money cost an absurd amount of money just for 2B it’s nothing those people just waste their money
If CCP want to atract some new player, Remove skill extrac/injec it was a bad idea from the begining the plex price will drop, make Daily/week/month objective that give SP it was tested some year ago when i created my account, i loved those objective but old player whined and CCP remove it…why ? cause they can’t farm them with their 20alt and now they add skill inject/extract… congrats
More wailing and flailing. Waving your arms and crying “It’s too complex! You can’t possibly understand all the interactions!” does not actually do anything except show that you are out of rational things to say, and are merely falling back on exaggeration and obfuscation.
Here’s the point, very simple: what you are saying boils down to, in the extreme, “well, if the high SP player goes AFK for the battle, then the low SP player will win”. You are saying “Well if the P2W SP/bling player does X, then the non-p2w player can do Y in response and win!”.
Completely missing the point that, P2W player X can also counter or do anything your ‘low SP’ player can do. We are talking about 2 players, with the abilities to make correct decisions, with the freedom to choose anything they like. We aren’t talking “well if the guy who P2Ws gimps himself, and the guy who didn’t pay does everything correctly, he’ll win!”. Anything the non-paying guy does, the P2W guy can do better, faster, more. It isn’t really ‘P2W’ (by my personal definition), it is really “pay to have it now”. But then, any other game is also ‘pay to have it now’, in general… there are very few actual P2W games out there.
Thus, on the spectrum of ‘P2W / P2 Have Anything Right Now’ games… EVE is the most P2W of them all. Which I already explained, but since you think pretending to be an expert and repeating the words “Giffen Good” over and over again means people will fall for your nonsense when start arm-waving and yelling “It’s too complex! You can’t understand!”, you ignore the actual points being made and just start flapping about.
Denying it just as hard as you can… feel free to name anything in the game I can’t have tomorrow, if I drop enough RL $$ on it.
Not sure what saying “One guy, no matter how much he pays, can be taken down by enough gankers in ganknados” has to do with the P2W argument. But apparently it was important to you to throw in a red herring.
Friend, I know this may come as a surprise, but the “win” in pay2win isn’t ment literally. It means advantage in whatever form or shape.
I just thought I tell you that, because it looks like you can’t understand what people are talking about when they use the term.
You’re welcome.
Anyway, it was expected that the thread devolves into a discussion about p2w. Some people have a hart time admitting that this stench is on their favorite game. But denying it and looking the other way will solve nothing. Only calling CCP out for their greedy practice can.
The P2W skill injector, ISK buyer, can always do anything the ‘low SP’ player can do, better, faster, with more options. I know it’s impossible for you to admit you’re wrong, but it’s okay… everybody else can see it just fine.
I guess the actual problem we have to deal with here, is that clearly, paying a sub makes you blind to reality, and unable to process facts that aren’t in agreement with your delusions.
We may have to petition CCP to stop allowing subs on medical grounds.
Friend, nobody complains about an opponent’s advantage when it doesn’t make them beat another player.
And you have no material advantage, you simply got a skill you didn’t have, faster than you would have otherwise. There are plenty of players out there already who have that very same “advantage”, and they didn’t use injectors to get it.
Yes, p2w doesn’t mean there are exclusive things to buy for cash, it almost always means you can buy shortcuts.
If you have a computer game where you want to achieve something, let’s say to get 100mil ISK to buy a new ship. If there is any option to use RL money instead of playing the game to get that 100mil ISK, that is p2w. It is not about winning, it is about getting in-game advantage in whatever form or shape with RL money.
Not really hard to understand one would think.
If that p2w is a problem for the game is a completely different question by the way. But just because the sandbox may have a mitigating effect on that doesn’t make it not p2w.
My entire argument was that all it does is provide said shortcuts, and that said shortcuts are not harmful to the game in any way.
Your advantage is imaginary. You can’t buy special ships, special ammo, or anything else. You can spend real money to buy the same ship that I can buy with fake money. At the end of the day, your shortcut did not give you a mechanical advantage over me.
