I haven’t since the change bc I dont have access to low/null refineries, moons to mine, and I dont ■■■■ with pi at all. Never will.
Where you doing your reactions? You paying to fuel the athanors you’re mining on? I’m not saying you’re full of ■■■■ or anything, but I’ve found it literally impossible to do without buying in ■■■■ that I am completely incapable of making for myself due to access issues. For t1 hulls. Literal t1. That or you are not factoring your true cost. Intentional or not.
They are better, especially if you can assume similar pilot competence. How much better is tough to nail down, and even assuming you could quantify that in some meaningful way how much tedium should that add considering you cant get bpos and research them to max then just print these things endlessly like you can t1. Not to mention each single run eats an entire build slot. Even t2 is easier to print than pre ■■■■■■■■ pirate. My point is restricting the drop rate of bpc and tweaking the lp cost was the intended balance mechanic since launch. Why, instead of using that existing mechanic, did they decide “■■■■ round wheels, let make all new wheels and this time triangles”. It seems to me they chose a much more difficult dev path. Add to that that they literally locked everyone who doesn’t have connections out of faction/pirate industry… they’ve literally taken a previously universal function away from us and gatekeep it behind expensive infrastructure. Its a ■■■■ move, and arguing otherwise is dishonest. Period.
Arguing against your beliefs is not dishonest. Not everyone is going to believe what you believe.
Reducing the drop rate does not set them apart from other ships industrial-wise. That would lead to increased cost due to BPCs potentially being harder to acquire, but that is not what I am discussing here. I am solely looking at the industrial side of ships. To build them, they should be set apart from their T1 counterparts. Pirate ships are made up of 3 separate factions. 2 empire factions and then the specific pirate faction. So a pirate ship should require 3 unique items to manufacture. A navy ship is an advance version of the T1 so it should require advance components specific to the empire it is for.
Whether you have access to the required infrastructure or not is not a reason for these changes to not be good. It is something that you can strive towards or workout an agreement with another group.
T1 battleship hulls again it can be debated at length whether or not the indy change was necessary for them. There are both pros and cons to the changes for BS.
If you dont have moons to mine, that is your problem and choice. If you dont want to deal with PI, that is your problem and choice. It is also your choice to not buy the PI off the market. If you dont want to buy the composites, that is also your problem and choice.
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If you have a facility in LS, personally I would just the reactor on the same athanor your drill is on. uses about 150 million isk of fuel per month.
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No, its really not. they are vastly better and it isn’t even particularly close
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If you are doing T2, then what is your problem? you obviously already have access to the goo, the fuel blocks and the reactions facility.
I have done t2 in the past. Thats how I know wtf I’m talking about. T2 production is a colossal pain in the ass. If you buy in the non mineral components you can’t sell your hulls at a profit. Its half the reason I switched to farming faction bpcs from ded sites and manufacturing them on the fly in npc stations all over new eden wherever I happened to be. I hate being tied to infrastructure, I hate paying for fuel, id rather pluck my fingernails out than do pi, and ill be god damned if I’m paying someone else to do something I think shouldnt even exist. Nevermind that none of this was needed to do exactly what I’ve been doing for 18 years.
The newly part is the biggest part of the problem. If it had always required deep pockets to make one off cynabals here and there I would never have done it. Since we could build them, and now we can’t due to no action of our own its poor game design at best. Objectively bad change is obviously bad.
Quantify that explicitly with a percentage exactly how much better they are. Because thats the percentage of how much more straight minerals it should take to make them. IF and only if the bps are now available as bpos and are researchable and able to be copied just like t1 or even invented like t2. They should never require any components derived from moons, pi, or gas. They aren’t t2 or t3.
Nevermind that I’ve killed machs 1v1 in a hyperion regardless of the perceived strength disparity. A hyperion I can no longer build mind you.
Nevermind the fact that these ships are meant for extremely different circumstances and excel at very different game plays. Hyperion is a beast at 1v1 and will eat most other ships. Mach is a much better fleet ship.
They were too easy to build to begin with. That was the poor game design. Not everyone should be able to just right away be able to build the better/best ships in the game. That and a push to break caps from normal indy levels was the main reason for these changes.
If they had the isk for an orthrus bpc or got lucky and got a drop yeah… absolutely they should. What’s happened is all that value has been moved from the person that found the bpc to the industrialist. Away from where the original devs thought it should be mind you. I happen to agree with them that the value should be mostly in the bpc.
Thats my point. Their relative power is entirely situational, and very much pilot skill dependant. Their worth is how you use them, and as such is difficult to nail down specifically.
It proves absolutely nothing besides your own biased opinion @Vixen_Vix. The fact that ore mining didn’t drop after the rorqual was removed from the equation shows that the increase in ore volume did its job. not to mention the simple fact that there is a bigger focus on low volume ores.
Are you that displeased that player numbers didn’t go down?
@Ranar_Linyne the amount of large ships became game breaking. as the last war proved, losing capital ships became a trivial matter. i noticed this trend for many years now and i’m glad that now it’s much more expensive to make and fly them.
I’m betting you havent read my posts on this subject. No biggie, ill summarize for you in a tl:dr style.
Capital ships where too easy to manufacture, this may have been a bit heavy handed but something did need to be done. Tweak it so its possible to build them for slightly less than their avtual value and we’re good.
Sub caps did not need additional tedium, nor do they or we for that matter, benefit from the addition of these materials to their builds. It has been a net negative affect on their manufacture and use while skyrocketing their cost. Notice I said cost not price. While botg are true the cost is actually the relevant factor as thats why manufacture is depressed. Still. Nearly a year later.
yeah, the usual “just a bit less” lie.
The material cost they are at now is good. Maybe still too low actually.
And you don’t need to build them if it’s THAT difficult.
Nope, and nope.
Only BS were affected, not “subcaps” like you say. So you are lying.
Also it’s not tedium. It’s just more mats in the BP. Learn the difference. It’s wayyyy more easy to do BS manuf than T2 (in term of actions). nothing to do with tedium.
BS are only “more complex”. Not more tedium. Again, learn the difference : complex != tedium . PI is tedium. selling on the market is tedium. Building BS is not.
Indeed, that we agree with.
BS (and not subcaps) need to get an increase in performance to compensate for the increase in complexity and cost of their manufacturing.
PI is pure tedium. We agree on this point. Where we dont agree is the addition of pi derived materials to historically mineral only builds transferring 100% of its tedium value to the total build. Because imo, thats exactly whats happening. Same for gas, goo, and the resultant reations which are now required components for all t1 battleships and double for all faction subs. With the added tedium of being tied to a low/null refinery. The most egregious result being the forced rerouting of a previously universal function into the same channels dominated by a handful of t2 producing orginizations. Meaning what we could all do from day one can now only be done by the industrial elite. That happened because ccp doesnt understand their game, or worse they do and the consolidation of manufacturing power was intentional. It has proven, as predicted, to be harmful to the masses. It is objectively bad, and it contributes greately to why many players are logging in less and less.
*This is not the only reason people are leaving, far from it, but it has certainly contributed.
