About absurdity of declaration of criminality

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
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Continuing the discussion from To end The War:

( Slight offtopic by myself - these new Galnet media provide a good option of branching discussion, so I am branching Makoto’s derailing into new thread so she could stop posting offtopic there )

Priano, do you ever understand how criminal system in the State works?

Let us imagine, I, as a captain of my ship, would follow a CEP example and… oh Maker… declare one of my crewmembers as a criminal. And a terrorist (thought that’s dumb, declaring someone a terrorist is like declaring them a cook). And I’ll do that with high ranked officer. Let’s say… I’ll officially declare my First Engineer to be a Criminal and a Cook.

What I’ll get in reply? Laughs.

Can I fire him based on this declaration? Well, I can. But that will be a violation of the contract and I’ll have to pay him a fine.

But what will happen if I actually order my men to sieze him and execute? They will either arrest me or execute my order. Let’s say, they are loyal to me and hate the First Engineer, becaue he was not smarter than Arrendis, so they capture him and execute as I’ve ordered. It is a war time, and if you have an order, you have to execute it or arrest your officer (me), or you will be killed on the spot or court-martialled for insubordination.
Possible situation? I’d say quite, considering discipline on my ships.

But what happens next? After I am docked and not on the active duty, it is I who will be arrested, either by the station security or by my own officers, I will be detained and court-martialled for murder of a serviceman, because it was my order to execute him.

However I declare him a criminal, a cook, a terrorist, or whatever, he doesn’t become a criminal despite my declaration, and my order of the execution would be illegal, even if I represent the highest authority on my ship, like CEP represents it in the State.

It wouldn’t be illegal, for example, if I assembled a tribunal of, like, three high-ranked officers, gave him a hearing, gave him chance to defend himself, but found out that he dressed up like a cook and stole a dry ration from the caboose. Well, then he will be a criminal, and I will have to punish him for the theft.

The situation with the CEP is exactly the same. They can declare whatever they want, but they have to follow rules and regulations of the State. It is not the CEP who decides who is criminal or not. In the State, CBT does. Without CBT hearing, without CBT resolution, if CEP orders someone to execute Heth - then CEP chairmen will be detained and trialed for a murder. The CEP will be dissolved and new CEP will be assembled. And knowing how much corporate sharks are hungry for power, that would happen quite swiftly.

But in any case, former executor Tibus Heth has already died as a hero, fighting against Sansha invasion in Aivonen, thus all these talks are just speculations.

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This forum doesn’t need another damned thread for Diana Kim to run her mouth.

Folks, let’s ignore this in favor of one of the others.

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The only one who runs her mouth here is you, Priano.

You were derailing other threads. I gave you a chance for discussion about what you were injecting in other discussion deliberately, but looks like you aren’t interested in talking like normal people do. Then what the hell are you doing here at all? Slandering people and trolling discussions? Maybe it’s you, who shall be ignored, then? Mm? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Even if you don’t agree with people, you don’t get privilege to call them mad because of this, Priano. You don’t get privilege to spread lies, and all you do with your sort of behavior is turning the IGS into cesspool with your replies. Are you happy? Do you like to live in such sort of atmosphere, Priano? Why don’t you make your own forums and live there yourself, without bothering me, wihtout bothering the State, the Citizens, and all the readers here who come here to discuss politics, culture, wars, instead of smelling all this proverbial mud you splash all around?

Some respect can open long roads, and I had successful discussions even with my direct enemies, whom I swore to kill, even with gallenteans whom I detest with all my insides, just because we managed to stay civil in discussion against each other. But your kind of attitude?

It is not acceptable.

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Makoto is at it again, ladies and gentlemen.

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So, by that blurb of text, I’m not a traitor to the State, as previously declared by you.

Sad times.

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You mean telling the truth?

Or are you claiming the CEP has not repeatedly established the Dragonaur are terrorists? Or maybe that admitted Dragonaur-affiliated individuals were responsible for the Kyonoke incidents?

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No.

That’s definitely not what I have claimed. I can recommend you only to read the post once again, as it was explained quite plainly even for Goons to understand.

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As before, so it is again. This forum doesn’t need another damned thread for Diana Kim to run her mouth.

Folks, let’s ignore this in favor of one of the others.

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Makoto, stop trolling threads and whole IGS.

If you can’t maintain discussion you have started, resorting to trolling the moment real arguments were presented against you, be so kind to leave and let people talk in peace without your childish remarks.

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See, Makoto, I’m thinking in just the opposite way: Let’s ignore her idiotic contest thread. After all, this thread is one where she can’t claim any of the normal ‘this isn’t about me’ and ‘this is not the place for that’, because well, this thread’s about Diana’s criminality as much as anyone else’s.

And she invited it here. She can hardly whine to the Galnet mods when it blows up in her face. After all, we’re not attacking her, per se, we’re discussing an example of the topic she offered.

First, I’d like to point out this bit of logical stupidity:

In and of itself, Diana, you’re quite right. It is making a declarative statement about someone’s activities. And Culinary programs throughout the State do, in fact, declare people ‘cooks’ all the time. Declaring someone to be a terrorist means making a public statement that that person is a member of an organization which has been determined to be responsible for criminal acts intended to sow fear, destabilize society, and undermine the authority of the government, for political purposes.

In this case, that would mean undermining the authority of the Caldari State and, for example, its officers.

Under most racketeering laws, terrorist organizations are held to be criminal organizations. The entire organization, all members, share resources, and share in the benefits from criminal acts. Thus, they are all—every member—legally responsible for the actions of the organization. This means that if someone is determined to be a member of a terrorist organization, they’re a criminal.

And for the record, if you were to declare your First Engineer a criminal, I doubt you’d get laughs. If you ordered your crew to arrest him, I’m sure they’d do exactly that. After all, you’re in charge. You’re in charge for a few reasons, like ‘you pay them all to do what you say’ and ‘ship performance substantially degrades if the capsuleer’s not jacked in[1]’. So the odds of your crew either disobeying you or (laughable itself) arresting you are negligible, and let’s not pretend otherwise.

I do like how you built the entire framework on the presupposition that you’d order him executed, though. After all, nobody’s been talking execution. If you ordered him arrested, and, I don’t know, thrown in the brig, then it comes down to a matter of evidence. When you dock up, you might find yourself sued or fined for false arrest, but I sincerely doubt you’d find yourself in front of a court martial over it. Service-wise, you’d be looking at a reprimand at most.

As for you convening a tribunal… doesn’t the CSP and CN each have their own tribunals? Assembling a trio of people of notable rank who all dislike someone is easy. That’s why most places, including the State, don’t let the person making the accusation act as one of the officers of the court, be it martial, criminal, or civil. Rather, there are professional legal experts within the service whose full-time job is to be a Tribune, Judge, Adjudicator, call it what you like, as well as advocates for the accused, and for the state.

If anything, convening your own tribunal would likely land you in hotter water than the arrest. It might’ve been a necessity in the days when it took months or weeks to get anywhere, but given that we can slow-boat freighters and supers from one end of New Eden to the other in less than a day (if, you know, doing that wouldn’t mean getting blown up), there’s literally no situation where you don’t have the time to toss his ass in the brig, finish what you’re doing, and get back to station to hand him over to people who aren’t just self-aggrandizing mercenaries with delusions of Real Power™.

  1. Not only because a vital component of the ship’s systems (your brain) is missing, but also because using the pod means having less crew, and now suddenly the ship’s short-handed.
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Speaking about

Your claim of

have little to no effect on me.

You see, goon, I follow only Caldari State law, and whatever your delusion of Real Power™ make you think I have committed any crimes in any your either deluded or make up insignificant laws - they are not existent here. You can’t trial me neither as a capsuleer, nor as a State citizen. Maybe your tiny goon puppets follow some sort of your “laws”, but as I said, I don’t care about your nullsec laws at all.

I can just go there and slaughter your pets, the State officials will just smile to me when I will give the report about killed goon ships.

So keep your talks about my alleged “criminality” to your buddies, but here you are just making fool out of yourself.

I am a lawful State citizen and whatever charges you can bring against me according to your own insignificant laws, I can just use them as a toilet paper, and that would be the only proper use of your charges against me.

You and your “laws” have no power here, goon. But you can pet your self-aggrandizing delusion of Real Power™ by calling me a criminal. Of course, I won’t become one disregarding how many times you will call so.

D. Kim, Strike Commander,
State Protectorate, CMC,
Caldari State.

P.S.
Also, if you really would have any real charges against me, you’d state them, even according to your goons law. Otherwise your statement about my “criminality” looks not really as a charge, but as another baseless tongue beating of demented nullsec pilot, who just tries to insult other people without having anything real against them.

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They probably have power in some system, and I think she could make you KOS in there. I am not sure how scary it should be, I think they are NBSI anyways.

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You sign your posts.

Also, I notice you didn’t actually respond to the entire point of the post, but rather went off on a rant about 2 little words. Now, consider: did I say you are a criminal, or did I say it was a subject fit for discussion in the thread?

We are, and she’s far too much of a coward to come to Delve anyway. Meanwhile, I’m up in Caldari space right now. Of course, contrary to Diana’s claims, the State likes me just fine.

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You are making this up, it doesn’t look like she claims that. Why are you saying this to me? I can read what she says.

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Tibus Heth was declared an outlaw within the State. To be outlawed is to be afforded no legal rights or protections. Arguing that Tibus Heth isn’t a criminal until he is tried is ignoring the fact that a sentence has already been delivered upon him: outlawing. There can be no trial for an outlaw because they, as part of their sentence, have no legal right to one.

It is, in effect, a death sentence which absolves any citizen of the charge of murder in executing an outlaw.

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He’ll always be +10 in Diana’s heart.

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Charlie-C comin’ atcha with another fun image.

6RXQHYo.png1326×1202 451 KB

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Saved for posterity.

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Thanks! I wonder what @Diana_Kim thinks of it. Art is integral to culture and maybe elaborating and expanding on the specifics of the cultural differences between the Federation and the State could aid in her understanding of the cluster.

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I like the compression artifacts, they really accentuate things.

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