About the VNI nerf (feedback and idea)

I’m a little bit late on this topic since i just returned a week or so ago, when i read about this nerf (removel of drone velocity bonus). I think this type of balancing is really bad for the game on the long run.

First off. I fly a super carrier, I dont rely on VNI ratting to generate isk myself, so i’m not advocating against a 2 mill in tick loss, which could be completly negated by adding a drone navigation computer anyway (important: if you are not a new or lowskilled player).

I’m playing this game for about ten years but untill two years ago I was the type of player that would play for one maybe two months at the time on one account never buying plex. Not the most profitable customer for CCP the least. I would get bored as I did’nt understand much of the game and I usually got owned :). Untill two years ago when I discovered nullsec live and the big communities that are thriving there. I learned and started like many others with salvaging and VNI ratting to. That opened a lot options for me as a total noob back then. I could make isk and take some more risk (more content), it felt more rewarding and far less dull then it did before and progressing my character was at a much better pace for me.

Some people would argue that slow progression is great. I’m not that type of player and probably more people are like that, seeing the injector sales.

For the last two years I’m playing with two omega accounts. Which I pay for by subscription fee and from time to I buy some plex or one of the packs and special offers. Good profit for CCP. Theres no other game where I’m ok to spend this amount of money on monthly. Nowhere near actually. But all of that income for CCP would not have happened in my case (and possibly many others) if it wasn’t for VNI ratting and salvaging.

From time to time I still enjoy VNI ratting, while talking to other people (usually helping them out) or checking out my skills etc. I find it also quitte enjoying to keep tweaking the fit(s) as my skills grow/grew. It also a nice way to bait aggressors.

Pissing off people that spend real money or a lot of time to advance there character for that extra 5%, only to see it removed afterwards is not a good strategy. Besides this particular nerf has little to no effect for players that already have other options, such as myself.

I wanted to say this because I think CCP is forgetting about this. Looking at the changes from the past two years.

If the problem is anomalies pumping to much isk into the game:
Why not just lower the bounties on anomalies a bit so they drop 25 mill average bounty instead of 30 (based on haven). thats a decrease between 15-20% and would probably not piss off anyone.

This type of nerf is much more simple and it affects everyone proportionaly. Some examples:

  • A VNI ratter for about 3 million per tick (usually a newer player)
  • A carrier pilot for about 10 million per tick
  • A super carrier pilot for about 15-20 million per tick

This would also affect scaling with VNI’s. So someone running three VNI’s semi afk is affected three times, potentionally cutting out the income on the 4th VNI completly.

So reducing the bounties slightly is a solution that scales well. And it also scales on the bigger picture because this type of nerf would affect a larger faction much more then a smaller faction (exponetially).

If AFK ratting is the problem (again pumping a lot isk into the game - which is still possible by the way). Its really easy to solve:
Why not add one or two more frigates (or use the existing ones in the waves) and have one or two random per anomaly always just yellowbox (never redbox). Preventing the next wave to spawn automatically. This would completly negate the 100% afk style without negating those that scale it and semi afk. Affecting your new players not so much. If you want an AFK fit you balance it around yellow boxing, because thats where isk in the tick is, when going afk mode.

If isk/material sinks are the problem:
There is a huge gap between subcap and capital, there are opportunities. There are also oppurtunities for battlecruisers and battleships. They are not significantly better then frigates or cruisers while being extemly slow and clunky. You are often better off taking a smaller often cheaper ship variant. So maybe buff battlecruisers and battleships a bit up. Make them slightly more deadly against capital ships in small groups.

Or create an even huger citadel then the keepstar and make so costly in materials to build that it would cost a trillion or maybe two. So fast quanties of ore and other material leave the game again. These citadels dont have to be much stronger. Being an prestige item is probably enough for factions to want them.

This would also scale between small and large factions. As large factions would want to have more of these big citadels since they produce more and control more space to place them in. If materials become to cheap because to much isk is pumped into the game. Then having material sinks would increase the need for materials thus increasing the price and balancing it out via ISK inflation again.

Revert the drone velocity nerf on the VNI as its just contributing to what people call ‘frigates online’ and just reduce the bounties on high-end anomalies a little bit.

There is nothing of value in this entire post, and there so many fundamental flaws in the post that it’s clear the OP doesn’t actually understand what he’s talking about.

-1, bad post, poorly thought ideas, absolute waste of time even reading

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Thats not much of a constructive reply either. Could you elaborate it per point/flaw you see?

I’ll humor you.

Please explain to me where you got these numbers. We can start off with this.

Given that under your system, it would take 1 hour to make 9 million isk with a VNI. What problem are you actually trying to address here?

Depending on the type of rats a high skilled character can clear for example a rock haven in 24 minutes with the right fit. Thats average 30 mill bounty per haven -> in 24 minutes. A tick is 20 minutes, so its not exact math but if the average haven drop 30 mill in bounties but afterward only 25 million average. This will lower your tick between 15-20% (1/6th over the average 30 million in bounty the site drops).

So in my described case you still clear as much rats as you do now, you only get 15-20% less isk from it.

I dont know where you get the 9 million number from, but on serpentis i can make average 25 mill ticks and Bloodraider average 20 mill ticks. Including after this nerf (60-75 mill per hour).

Ok, before we move on, do you have actual proof of this? Like, screenshots of the pirate bounties? Or are you just pulling numbers out of your rear end? Because it sounds like you’re pulling numbers out of your rear end.

I used to multibox several perfectly skilled VNI alts and ran multiple Havens simultaneously and have only received ticks above 25m when the site spawns an Elite Pirate faction rate.

The numbers you’re stating are immediately making me suspicious. This sounds like someone who doesn’t actually have personal experience but are using numbers they found on some website they did a quick Google search on.

Your question is a bit off-topic. As this topic is about smarter nerfs that scale and have a new player in mind.

This topic is not about how to best optimize your VNI. I’m certainly not going to give you my fits, or information over my main character wallet. Al i can tell you is that 25 mill ticks on a serpentis rock haven are possible, even now. and at times you can go over that aswell. On blood raider sites it less but activly 20 mill ticks are still possible.

I don’t know what your skills are, what fit you use, whats rats you do and if you afk them 100%, semi-afk or activly rat them. But again thats off-topic.

Ok, please tell me what you are doing in a VNI while not AFK that the Drones don’t already automatically do on their own.

So if you’re making 18-20m ticks, by your own admission, you’re not making 25m ticks? Aren’t you? So where are you getting these numbers from?

Edit: I see you editing your own post. You can’t get away that easily. :slight_smile:

No i wanted to give a more complete answer.

But you are trolling towards of topic. Help improve the idea instead

There is a difference in tick between:

  • AFK
  • Semi-AFK
  • Active

But the proposed example hits all three

Do you have any evidence or statistics to support this claim or are you just pulling it out of your rear end?

Example of supporting evidence would be logs of pirate bounty ticks for each of those three.

Sidenote: what do you mean by “Semi-AFK” ?

If you for example run three vni’s at the same time. You dont activly manage each at any given time. Therefor some rats might yellowbox and your drones go quiet for a short while. How often this happens depends on your fit, skills, how afk you are and what kind of tank you use. It happens more often for example with speed tanked ships compared to shield tanked ships. This reduces the overall tick. Thats what I mean by semi-afk.

This is objectively wrong, but I’m curious to see how you will defend it.

Please tell me how the fit, skills and “what kind of tank you use” impacts how often a rat will yellow box you. I would love to know where you’re getting these ideas from. :smiley:

Edit: I’m gonna go to bed and I’ll check this in the morning, so take your time collecting the evidence to support your claim that “what kind of tank you use” influences how often rats will yellow bx you.

Again off-topic, you havent even answered my first question but ok.

Rats yellowbox you when you are out of range and they cant hit you. So if you are using a speed tank (with higher skills you go faster). the odds that some frigates end up chasing you and thus yellowbox is greater.

If you use a shield tank approach and you orbit without a propmod closeby. The rats will almost always redbox you. Not all types of rats allow you to orbit closeby with a shield tank though. But a 15-20km orbit without any propmod is enough for most battleships to miss you (none missle shooting rats).

edit: Skills have everything to do with it. More skills allows ytou to swap in more offensive damage, tracking and speed increasing modules, making a better tick.

By the way can you show me some of your logs I’m curious what ticks you get :slight_smile:

edit: From what you write you also semi-afk multibox the sites at least. Active ticks are higher. Maybe try one site activly on one character as most new players would do. But then with your skills level. With perfect skills you would probably clear a site in around 20-25 minutes.

I’d like to point out that in a recent patch the spawn times of anomalies were nerfed, resulting in a much higher income decrease for supers than VNIs, but still noticable.

Another thing I’d like to say is that, ccp has always prefered to use “flavor of the month” as one of their balance guidelines. It means that they let certain ships be op for certain roles, then nerf them when they get too boring. VNI has been king of the ratting hill forever (and still is), so the nerf was completely waranted.

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I havent super rat since i returned playing, so cant really comment on that yet

Here: https://prnt.sc/nvhqgl This is the results of semi-afk orbiting at 50 on a blood raider rock haven while reading the forum and eve reddit. On a serpentis rock haven ill orbit at 20, having only redboxing rats and decreased drone travel time. So activly on those i easily pass 25 mill ticks yeah. My drone skills are not maxed.

If you want to affect AFK game of drones specifically - it is much easier to deal with it at its source: aggressive drone AI. Remove it and no more AFK is possible with drone vessels, period.

ps: Debating with Scoots might be interesting, but he will fiercely defend against any attempt/suggestion about solving AFK farming with drone ships as if he has some vested interest in that (lack of) activity. For example, this previous thread that got derailed a few times but still has some discussion about AFK and VNI.

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I think removing the drone agression completly is a bit overkill, but thanks for the serious reply.