I see.
But its entirely up to each player/org how actively and by which means they pursue the war.
Even as a nominal “defender”, they can aggress just as well as the war initiator can.
TLDR: War is only as meaningful and contentful as you make it yourselves.
of course, but doing stuff for someone who will fail to login or undock during a war, or will feed you to a target because of their terrible fitting/choice of activities under the prevailing tactical situation is not high on peoples agenda. likewise resources are a thing that runs out, so having a notion of personal efficiency is useful.
We actually do, but we’ve already discovered that for example, you, drac, myself are all cats, and won’t herd in the same direction even if wishing to travel a similar road.
There are lots of fundamental disadvantages to players that want to pve and pvp on the same character. I even go through it myself, simply by being half a dozen jumps away and in the wrong ship to immediately support friendlies.
Even more obviously, I could make a choice that would make my life in syndicate far more effective in that role - of idling this character in a pvp ship, on comms, ready to fight and reactivate my original account to pve with off comms somewhere - which would make me one of many, many submarine funded characters - which I would not like, but lets face its militarily effective.
So if I choose to get into a highsec war, the issue is being one of few effective players in a corp, against an alliance who is more or less full of effective players - which is why we went through the arguments before about the minimum scale of effort required imo to be able to work - have to recruit a pretty big core of people who are actually effective.
Its actually what I like to avoid, but there are thousands of players who do whatever is effective and this is a game where the actions of others affect you, and once you start fighting wars, other people being effective impacts you.
Depends on how you define war. If you compare it to a Nullsec “war” then it will look different. If you ask everyone in this thread what they consider a highsec war to be, I imagine you would find a bunch of different answers. I like that in a highsec war, you can use them for many purposes and reasons and if that involves there not actually being a kill, that’s fine.
Sure there is. Kills, player interaction, glory, stories of extortion / ransom / piracy, loot, space denial, structure removal, and plenty of other reasons. Reasons to defend are in a lot of cases directly opposite from the reasons to attack.
This is Player-made content through a game mechanic. It’s working as intended and despite the rhetoric you like to parrot along with others, does create interesting content. It may only be fun or interesting for one side because of most players desire to want to grind or farm uninterrupted, but… this is Eve Online not a farming simulator.
I enjoyed the watchlist, but it is entirely possible to hunt or pursue a specific target. We mostly because spoiled and super-lazy when we had the watchlist and never were forced out of that rut of laziness because we have trade hubs and pipes to watch for targets.
On any given day there are plenty of targets that I’m running locators for, checking killboards, and sending my scout 80+ jumps in a play session to check on targets. What happens is that most of them end up dropping corp to avoid it. So again, don’t let the lazy players fool you into thinking it’s just too hard!
I dunno, the opportunity for content is there when I’m taking your POCO or Upwell structure away from you. I recognize that in most groups case, the amount of wars they have for that kind of content may not always be dominant. What is wrong with trade hub denial or killing mission runners? Do you remember during WWB when contracts were paid for groups like VMG to hunt and destroy Nullsec logistics? Do you remember how often we were slaying freighters and jump freighters?
Actual fleet fights do happen. What typically happens is that when a group is successful in getting a fight, that baiting or some other creative use of mechanics are used. The complaints you hear of these low and Nullsec elitists is when they just plainly roam their gang through the pipe, totally not trying to do anything creative or sneaky and they will get scouted. The war dec group will make a call to fight if they think they can take them and in a lot of cases will overkill to ensure victory. If that condition isn’t met, they they’ll dock up and the low or null elite pvpers will cry in disgust that they either didn’t willingly whelp into bad odds or were tactically superior in the form of neutral logi, neutral bumpers, or using other creative and handy uses of mechanics.
It’s a joke, really
A large number of wars is not a problem. Just because it’s not always full of content or even the type of pvp that you enjoy doesn’t mean it’s worthless. Yes so it seems that a large number of people that get dec’d never see their aggressors outside of a trade hub… who cares. If you want to experience a fight and get the chance to dictste your experience please feel free to declare war on someone else.
Hmm, cat herding.
I think that is something to players in general need to resolve. I can accept that people have a different perspective. Sometimes I feel that people may not know how to accomplish a goal. If we use me and Drac’s Stain venture as an example, most of the people there did not want to adopt an under the radar tactic while we gather resource and Improve our numbers. People were even unsure of what the goal was, It was in-fact building an economy so the little guy could benefit.
There must be some level of acceptance where we should accept the way things can be within Eve. So if I am part of a venture where I don’t agree with the direction then I need to calmly explain my concerns, while being happy to at least try what others are suggesting. If after that I am dissatisfied then I should exit the venture without trying to convince everyone else to exit.
The problems I try to address are difficult, (populating Stain, Avoiding/Fighting wardecs) They require outside of the box thinking and doing unorthodox playstyles in order to be successful.
The truth is I actually need Dracvlad. if that will happen or not I don’t know. Dracvlad is very good at gathering intel and I am sure great tactics could be created based on Dracs intel. Am I able to put all the personal stuff with me and Drac aside and focus on the goal? I don’t know.
Yes I agree that the wardeccers are effective, but I also see that their tactics are very predictable and have many flaws, Their assumption is that there arent many targets that can give them an effective fight is something that can be used against them. I’m pretty sure I can develop tactics to give the wardeccers a good fight, but this is dependent on people putting a level of faith in me and calmly giving me the opportunity to execute it. I’m unsure this will happen.
As I’ve said in previous posts, I feel the problem lies with the players more than it does the game mechanics. We have got to be open to trying more things that are outside of convention.
Guys.
If you want to incentivize HS wardecs, then do it properly.
Get everyone hyped, provide SRP, arrange fleets, run good intel, go full TOTAL WAR mode and make a real death or glory thing out of it.
That is content. That is fun.
Why don’t you help us do it properly Salvos?
I thought I just did.
I mean can you roll up your sleeves and come into chat channels, organise PVE or PVP fleets, help people on fitting ships, and give general advice if you have any spare time?
Yes, I can.
But I cant do it for everyone whining about HS wardecs.
My point is that it is WAR.
Either treat it as such, or gtfo of it, as is eminently possible.
Either fight or blue-ball the hell out of them.
To paraphrase Sun Tzu, only ever wage war on your own terms.
Its a vast ocean of free NPC docks, neutral eyes, neutral reps and I imagine you’ll be able to run maybe 3 permutations of baits and catches before they wise up and improve/return to being disciplined about their neutral eye coverage and move their operations around, (there are more than 1 hub after all), dock up blueball your leet pvpers or reverse bait you.
You aren’t going to catch one of the characters in an incursion vindicator very often, its more likely his alt is in your incursion fleet happily making bank.
Right so we have to use mechanics in order to win. If we can organise well perhaps we could have a fleet with an NPC interceptor scout. The moment their neut logi is on the field we get our fleet to suicide it and win by isk value.
Perhaps all the people involved can get into one corp using an alt? and perhaps just use Destroyers, frigs and cruisers to do some isk war with the wardeccers.? We could fund ourselves by having alts in NPC corps doing missions.
PvP unfortunately, in a war setup, is pretty unprofitable.
Grabbing a couple left-over T2 modules from sane players isnt exactly a big windfall. Sure it hurts them more than you, but its not exactly making bank.
As I said before, if you want to wage a war, do it with meaning, or indiscriminately. It is content, yes, but against a PvP fit, you aint gonna make money. Hell, you wont even make money against a POCO/POS. The mass war-wagers are doing it for content and to catch the occasional idiot whale.
Youre 100% wrong Salvos. You profit in a number of ways, you profit from fun game play and good company, You can gain the freedom to go about your daily when the war is over. You’ll also profit from having Dominion over Hi-sec. Am I the only one that can see this? Am I on my own with this view?
Salvos, we have to move forward from this “if im not getting a huge reward for doing something I’m not doing it” mentality. I think its boring and we are wasting epic opportunities for fun.
Fun is fun.
Isk is isk.
I get what you mean. Thats what I was posting about making war with meaning. But you need isk to do it, especially if you arent a billionaire.
You seem afraid to dip your toe in the water. Where does billions come into it if the ideal is using low cost ships and pilot numbers to win?
If a corp was created and lots of wardec targets joined using alts in Destroyers for example then I don’t think that would be very expensive if each player is paying for it themselves. Perhaps the ones who dont want to invest much can come in T1 fitted frigates to start of with and just see where it leads.
I’d be happy to pay for my own frigs and Destroyers and get in fleets where the goal is securing hi-sec for the little guy. Hell, I’d be happy to do it just to see what it could lead to.
Salvos, we have to have a constructive attitude about this and put an end to the “if I dont get something I’m not doing it” attitude. We have to make it more about fun and dominion in a role-play sort of fashion. Trust me there are mechanics in-place to help us with this.
Man, thats not fair. I was up for joining your HS project till it started getting weird.
Like it or not, “what do I get out of it” is always the question.
If you are space rich, cost/profit is not an issue.
If you arent, it is.
Thats why I said “make war with meaning”.
Content ofc matters.
(Note: I tend to agree with Faylee Freir, but setting that aside…)
The first point is the problem, IMO, the remaining points are why the problem exists. While mass deccing and farming killmails from the clueless and foolish, there were focused war decs in the past. That went away with the removal of the watchlist. As such mass deccing is pretty much all that is left.
Should mass deccing be nerfed? No! Nerfing mass deccing will not help at all, IMO, with points 2-4 above. Even if we got rid of mass war deccing points 2-4 would still exist.
I also think this is right. Right now wars are voluntary and even if we brought in a structure one could anchor to give a watchlist like functionality (for HS only, after all there are no supers in HS) wars would still be voluntary by and large. You can fight if you want too, but there are options for you to keep playing and not fight (the most obvious being dropping to an NPC corp).
Agreed.
It seems to me you just agreed with Aaron. One group of players understands how the game works in regards to combat and uses it to their advantage. The other group does not. So, the group that does not have this information needs to acquire it somehow…and that cannot be solved very easily by CCP or tinkering with mechanics.
Whats so weird about it? Drac and I had and argument and said crappy things to each other. Should we be judged only on that incident? No.
Indeed Teckos, my goal is to carefully get the non-pvp’ers to try some low-cost pvp in order to develop their understanding of combat. Indeed it is the players that must change in order to bring about a solution for defending a wardec.
Speaking honestly, It’s about lots of people doing a little bit to achieve the goal. The harsh reality is if we want Hi sec more secure then we’ve got to do it ourselves using the mechanics of the game to their full extent.
Point being I was ready to put my toe in the water till that then, which you challenged me to do now.
Returning to topic: Either fight the war, or escape it.
You can cycle resources/assets/members through alt corps indefinitely at equal or less cost than your aggressor. Yes it takes effort, but that is the price for blue-balling them.
If you cant win the war, this is what you must do.
Sucks, but what doesnt.
Fight if you can win.
GTFO if you cant.