I think when you look at a war declaration… it’s basically a payment to concord to “look the other way” when ships of one corp attack ships of another corp. It’s nothing more than a bribe to police.
I would say that if war declarations are viewed as too one-sided, a small change that could even things up a little would be to simply make it so that if a corporation is an antagonist in a war declaration, Concord should look the other way when anyone attacks them in high-sec… not just those they declared war against.
This creates more conflict and fights… as random third parties can join in for kicks whenever they want with the wardeck corps.
Essentially… when you bribe concord to look the other way when you attack corp A… they look the other way when ANYONE attacks you.
Why do you talk about PVP’ers and PVE’ers as if they’re mutually exclusive?
Point out anyone with a green killboard and I guarantee you, they’re involved with industry in one way or another. You talk about indy corps being extinguished because they get PVP’d. Well, I got news for you buddy. That’s the point. Competing industrial interests will strive to disband your corp and if you’re unable to defend yourself, guess what? You lose. Welcome to EVE. It’s a PVP game. Sure a few players can hide in NPC corps but the contribution they make to the game’s wider socioeconomic dynamic and meta is so minimal, they might as well be NPCs themselves.
Funny how everyone things about wars yet don’t fully think about all aspects of the war system.
To begin with, none of these ideas deal with the concept of mutual war. People need to realize that wars aren’t just about mercs and indy groups fighting. Some groups have wars against each other for fun. Red vs Blue is the big one but others do as well. Any system has to include such mutual aspects to cover groups that want to fight each other.
It also has to allow for a group to sec another when wanting to clean up old POCOs and other space junk.
Also, low sec entities use the occasional war sec to help pop structures without sec penalties or problems. Some dec the larger FW groups so the pirates can chase the FW into hi sec to continue the fight.
Even nul groups face war decs so they can be attacked in Jita and such.
Wars aren’t just between some merc group and Indy groups. War decs are just tools that allow for PvP in hi sec without Concord. Any replacement tool has to allow the same flexibilty, otherwise it is drastically hurting the sandbox and the freedom this allows.
This is a horrible idea. You are eliminating some of the fun and mutual aspects. Oh hey… Eve Uni wants a fun practice war against Red vs Blue or say Brave Newbies. One group has to declare war for such fun to happen in hi sec, but oh… Let’s make it so everyone can get in because you don’t like the current system. That is a horrible idea.
Gal militia wants to war Dec some of the larger amarr FW groups so they can help their Minmitar allies without sec loss and to continue fighting in hi sec, but let’s make them open to all attack because well… Some mercs decced me and I don’t like it.
Please try to understand all aspects of war decs before you try to ruin them for everyone.
Well, You’re right… The only thing that i made last months was freighter hauling and sell things… Looks too boring. Me or my corp can’t defend from these cynabal fleets. EVE should keep a place for lame players. LOL
Maybe eve is a game that i don’t like to play anymore and keep lying to myself doing something only to justify my last months of subscription that won’t be renewed…
btw, i already tried null sec. too much action for my play style… Can’t deal too with cynos and black op fleets that apear from nowere while rating alone in a battleship.
In highsec, any neutral could be an enemy and you can’t shoot them first because Concord protects them. You only find out they are hostile when they wardec you or you are being ganked, etc.
In null, that black ops fleet doesn’t “appear from nowhere”. You can see it in local, see it is not blue, and have plenty of time to warp away before it arrives to drop you. If you are in many dead space pockets they can’t light the cyno inside the acceleration gate, so you even have that protection. You can see probes in D scan, and many times people have cloaky eyes and/or an intel channel warning you in advance that they are coming. You can check the toon’s killboard to see if they have dropped people in the past. In addition, your corp can shoot the dropper first before they even can execute their “master plan” because conccord is not there to protect them.
Whenever I see someone come into this PVP game and try to change it to suit them, I think of what might happen to someone who walked into a bar and tried to convince the owner and its patrons that it’d be better off as a five-star restaurant.
I mean, why don’t you just go to the five-star restaurant down the street instead of coming to this bar and trying to change it? It’d be far less effort.
EVE isn’t a game for everyone, just as a bar isn’t a place for everyone. Personally, I like a bit of both.
Also, you keep saying, “I can’t”. This is your actual problem with the game - attitude. It seems that a lot of people who have the problems you do with it have the same or a very similar attitude problem. EVE definitely has its flaws, but your personal gameplay preferences isn’t one of them. It’s been a PVP game since day one of its inception and has always been intended as one. Every single mechanic, even those that appear to be PVE in nature, is there to drive, facilitate, and create conflict between players.
You think you’re just innocently selling modules in a station? Think again. You’re introducing competition to other traders trying to sell their modules. You think you’re just innocently making isk running missions? Think again. You’re generating more isk out of thin air into the game, decreasing its value for everyone and driving up inflation. PVP = player vs player. It’s conflict between players. Be that armed conflict or some other form of competition, this game is all about the PVP. And as much as its mechanics drive the PVP, all that PVP drives this game.
That’s why wardecs are needed, especially in high sec. You don’t get to just be ‘left alone’ because everything you do, no matter how banal it may seem to you, has the potential to effect other players. And those players deserve the chance to remedy any negative effects you may have on them, whether intended or otherwise.
Youre right bud… i don’t want to change it… If ships don’t get destryoed, it will ruin the economy.
I will prefer keep playing city skylines while drink my beer.
The biggest problem I’ll face will be seeing a lot of people dying of old age and not having enough funeral cars to take them to the cemetery…
It’s a video game about exploding internet spaceships so people find ways to explode them.
If you don’t like being wardecc’d, move out of hi-sec. Your corp may still get decc’d but it doesn’t matter since the explosions are going to happen anyway.
There is literally zero reason why CCP should make it to where you get to shoot rocks with zero risk. It makes for a stale and boring game.
Ganking is good.
Wardecc’ing is good.
Exploding is good.
Embrace it or go play a game where you can farm on a PVE server until your tiny little career heart in content.
Eliminate mutual wars from the mechanic. That part is easy enough to account for.
As for the FW stuff… I’ve honestly never seen that happen. I’ve never cared nor known many who cared about sec status in FW fights… more than half are with unalligned people looking for PvP anyway and I never have waited for them to shoot first because of sec status. And I’ve never seen a wardec based on FW militias.
Most wardecs seem to be those who want to create PvP targets for themselves. By allowing anyone to attack them when they’re the aggressor in a war… they get more targets. If both sides want the conflict but not to be killed by everyone… they can create a mutual war. It’s a win-win… and leads to more destruction overall.
But that isn’t how the mechanic works. First you must declare war, them the other side makes it mutual. It is at that point that the ear continues until ended by the initiator at 0 cost for all.
In your scenario, the first week of a mutual war would leave the aggressor open to all attacks before it becomes mutual. Thatvseens shortsighted.
Also, your assumption that a war dec exists just to generate targets. This is not true. I could hire mercs to take out a citadel or POCO, a specific target, making the defenders have to defend their asset in space. Under your method, the defender gets any support they want for free because anyone can attack the aggressor. That seems seriously biased.
And why can’t one group dec another with the goal of capturing POCOs, especially if the current POCO owner is a defunct corp? You seem to want to favor the defender heavily with free assistance simply because you don’t like the aggressor. Yet there are instances when the aggressor isn’t even attacking an active corp, but simply claiming an unused resource.
Then simply make attacking a war target as the aggressor in a war make you go suspect.
Your corp is breaking the “laws” that concord has… otherwise there’d be no need for a bribe (war declaration) to have them look the other way. I’m simply for allowing a “good samaritan” to punish you for breaking concord’s rules even when you bribe concord to look the other way.
I’m okay with that happening when you start attacking a target instead of declaring the war if that is cleaner. But it makes no sense for someone who see’s a mugging taking place and tries to defend the person being mugged to be shot by the police for that action. They can ignore the mugging if they get bribed… but they shouldn’t DEFEND the mugger.
A fine whine, and that some think mercs should pay Concord more for the right to hunt specific prey and then take a security hit when they do.
As for the OP:
No, we don’t have to agree that wardecs are a big issue, or that the purveyors of such services are nothing more than pirates. In fact I vehemently disagree, as an industrialist wardecs provide me with opportunities, just as ganking does. I would consider paying mercs to blow up my competition to be a marketing expense.
I’ve never had a problem with wardecs, jump clones and alts are wonderful things to pursue your normal playstyle with while on the receiving end of one.
Mercs don’t always dock up either, they’ll come out to play if they think they can beat their targets; as a target it’s your job to deceive them into thinking exactly that, and then dropping the hammer on them when they fall for it.
Wars are not muggings. Those are ganks and anyone can step in and shoot the criminals.
Wars are honourable combat between two groups. Having such a punitive mechanic that the aggressor has to take on all of New Eden in addition to the defending corp would only mean the mechanic would never be used by anyone outside of the large nullsec groups and the professional mercenary wardeccers who already are at war with dozens of corps at a time. An average corp would never use the mechanic to settle a score, or remove a structure, or test their mettle against another group as it would be impossible to have a balanced fight.
The defenders already get the free ally mechanic to balance things as the only major asymmetric aspect of wars. I am not sure that we should take that free ally and add to it every single other person in New Eden. Doesn’t quite seemed balanced or honourable to me.
This is the most non-eve statement I’ve ever read: “Wars are honourable combat between two groups.”
Wars (both in real life and in eve) ARE muggings. Saddam Hussein wasn’t looking for “honorable combat” when he invaded Kuwait. He wanted their stuff. Same goes with Germany invading France or Russia. Same is true with people looking to take sov in Providence to get the citadels that outposts will turn into. And it goes for wardeccing anyone who doesn’t want to fight. You’re looking to blow people up and take their stuff (or just blow them up for kicks).
The part of war that’s viewed as “honorable” is the defending side… and those who aid them. Not the ones that begin the war. If anything my suggestion allows for more honorable combatants to attack the muggers.
Your assumption is that all aggressors are at fault and are not honorable. Yet what is honorable about throwing a POS up on every moon in a system just to charge a holding fee when not even using the moons? What is honorable about a defunct corp holding POCOs with a high tax rate limiting others.
What is honorable about a Merc group holding all the extremely profitable POCOs near Jita under an alt corp and using the income to blanket war Dec Indy corps?
What about if a rival Indy corp is suicide ganking my corps miners? Am I suppose to gank back? Can’t I war Dec and go on the offensive to drive my attackers out and maybe hit their citadel too because the Indy bears they thought to evict happen to have teeth?
You are very hung up on the only possible reason for war being a merc corp hunting for an Indy one. The reality is yes, that covers a lot of wars, but not all. You need a tool (which is what war decs really are) which covers all scenarios fairly and equally. The current war dec mechanics do. There is s balance and it works. So until a new path is discovered that covers all scenarios equally or EVE stops being a dysyopic hostile universe, you need to accept war decs.
I’ll be upfront right here & admit I haven’t read anything past the title… howsoever, for the comments I want to make I don’t feel I need to?
As a potential target living mostly in hi sec who’s never been involved (to date) on the other side of the fence (so I guess I’m one of those referred to in the derogatory as a care-bear) my experience has been that there simply is no problem requiring a solution.
Wardecs are only an issue that might effect you if you join a player corporation, so if you don’t want to deal with them just don’t join a player corporation.
If you are in a player corporation it’s so easy to sidestep a wardec that it’s still not an issue… one option is to migrate everyone to a sister corp leaving a single alt to hold the deced corp open until the dec is done then all move back.
If you can’t be bothered leaving the corporation it’s still not really an issue as long as you fit your ships appropriately, keep an eye on local & just don’t act stupid…
One of my own alts was in a wardeced corp recently & I must have bowled through a dozen or more gate camps hauling BPO’s back & forth on the move to my new corp HQ, didn’t get popped once.
A bit off topic & not really a 4th point… but anyway… being in a player corporation in this game is tantamount to putting out your shingle with the words “Willing to PvP, Inquire Within” on it in glowing neon ten feet high, so why not actually live up to that, fleet up & fight.
Heck just bunk off to the quiet out of the way system to mine, mission and so forth and you’ll be fine. Avoid the trade hubs and the systems linking trade hubs. Or even look into moving some stuff to a HS pocket surrounded by LS. When a war dec hits…jump clone there and think of it as a vacation.
The point is when you are war decced you have to change your behavior. That is the nature of this game. It is not a stand alone PC game, this is a game where other players will interact with you…whether you want it or not.
Highsec wars are nothing but honourable. They are much more akin to an old-timey duel where one side calls out another to settle a matter of honour on the field of battle than a modern war. In highsec, one side calls the other out and they have 24 hours arrange their affairs and prepare for the contest, secure allies to assist them, or if they lack the stones, reject the challenge by dropping to the NPC corp. If they accept though CONCORD steps aside so the honourable contest can proceed much like the local constabulary would when noblemen were settling their difference with pistols or swords over a matter of honour in past times.
Since the 24h notice and the ability to leave at anytime makes wars purely consensual, they are a noble fight where glory and honour are paramount like for the knights of olde. They have little in common with the “dirty wars” of nullsec and of modern Earth where consent is optional.
If you lack the courage or honour to defend your banner, perhaps it would be best to just to stay in the NPC corp and leave the glory of fighting in wars for the noble class of New Eden that does.