(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

[Nana_Skalski]

Its indeed symbolic as of now actually. So nothing would really change.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Tannia_Ambrye

The Amarr aren’t stupid, and you don’t get to be an interstellar empire by being so. So if repeated efforts at “trying harder” fail will they continue to do so, abandon peaceful efforts, or abandon Reclaiming?

Then any discussion of peaceful resolutions is ultimately pointless, because as long as Amarr exists the Reclaiming is not going away. So if people want to preach some binary ‘abandon peace or abandon the Reclaiming’ mindset, then they might as well start stockpiling ammunition, because at no point will peace be valued higher than Amarr’s mission.

@Teinyhr

And all historical records that I’m privy to have not once shown the Empire to apply “softer methods”, but always opting for the command and conquer -route. Minmatar, Ealur, Ni-Kunni, Udorians, and countless others whose names “weren’t even fit to be recorded”, all were only fit to be crushed under the bootheel of Amarr onslaught instead of these vaunted peaceful conversion methods.

Historically? Khanid. Modern day? You apparently miss the priests and preachers living in each of the empires seeking converts and encouraging immigration to Amarr. Nor do you seem to count the efforts to politically convert and incorporate the Caldari through our alliance with them, or the fact that CONCORD is a tool for peaceful Reclaiming (what do you think Heideran co-founded it for? To just leave the empires forever separate? CONCORD is an extension of the empire’s mission into the international sphere, peaceful Reclaiming through politics and diplomacy). How about exports of Amarrian writings, art, and film?

Everything Amarr does should be with the purpose of carrying out the Reclaiming: defeating sin, bringing outsiders into the faith, and uniting mankind. It is the central mission of the Amarr faith, the purpose of each and every Amarr citizen. Asking for the elimination of something so significant is as much of a show-stopper as asking the Republic to give up their quest to free all Minmatar in the Empire.

[Chan_aar]

@Samira_Kernher

Nor do you seem to count the efforts to politically convert and incorporate the Caldari through our alliance with them

I wonder what @Diana_Kim thinks about that line.

[Teinyhr]

@Samira_Kernher

Historically? Khanid. Modern day? You apparently miss the priests and preachers living in each of the empires seeking converts and encouraging immigration to Amarr. Nor do you seem to count the efforts to politically convert and incorporate the Caldari through our alliance with them, or the fact that CONCORD is a tool for peaceful Reclaiming (what do you think Heideran co-founded it for? To just leave the empires forever separate? CONCORD is an extension of the empire’s mission into the international sphere, peaceful Reclaiming through politics and diplomacy). How about exports of Amarrian writings, art, and film?

Everything Amarr does should be with the purpose of carrying out the Reclaiming: defeating sin, bringing outsiders into the faith, and uniting mankind. It is the central mission of the Amarr faith, the purpose of each and every Amarr citizen. Asking for the elimination of something so significant is as much of a show-stopper as asking the Republic to give up their quest to free all Minmatar in the Empire.

And Khanid left the Amarr and generally gives the finger to Amarr traditions. Oops.

Modern day, what will the Empire do? Minmatar will never willingly return under Amarr rule. Federation abhors Empires’ disregard for personal freedom. Caldari will not submit to another ruler much like the Minmatar. Sure, the preachers might convert some minuscule amounts of the population in a very, very long run, but generally these cultures are very resistant to be swayed towards Amarr ideology. So, what will the Empire do once it can subvert no more people to its cause? Turn to the sword again?

Reclaiming is why there can be no true peace between Amarr and any other culture in New Eden, only temporary truces.

[Valerie_Valate]

It is well known, and should be common knowledge amongst capsuleer contractors with the Federation Navy, that many Caldari have indeed converted to one or another of the orthodox Imperial cults.

The comment I make about contractors for the Federation Navy, is that several of the Caldari have converted to the more… militant… branches of the orthodoxy. And suppression of these zealot groups is a task often given to capsuleers by Federation Navy agents.

[Tannia_Ambrye]

@Samira_Kernher

Then any discussion of peaceful resolutions is ultimately pointless, because as long as Amarr exists the Reclaiming is not going away. So if people want to preach some binary ‘abandon peace or abandon the Reclaiming’ mindset, then they might as well start stockpiling ammunition, because at no point will peace be valued higher than Amarr’s mission.

First of all, I presented three possible options. Neither do I think they’re exhaustive but that was all I could think of at the time. Secondly, I’m inviting you to come up with more options. Could Reclaiming evolve into something else, more benign and less likely to lead to war or further enslavement?

[Tannia_Ambrye]

@Samira_Kernher

Reclaiming through politics and diplomacy). How about exports of Amarrian writings, art, and film?

It sounds familiar. It’s similar to how the Federation exports its culture and values, also thanks to Concord. Polar opposites in some ways, yet here we find a practise both interstellar organizations share. Interesting…

[Samira_Kernher]

@Tannia_Ambrye

First of all, I presented three possible options. Neither do I think they’re exhaustive but that was all I could think of at the time. Secondly, I’m inviting you to come up with more options. Could Reclaiming evolve into something else, more benign and less likely to lead to war or further enslavement?

No, it cannot. It is already as benign as it could possibly be, because it is a statement of purpose, not methodology.

• Bring all of humanity into God’s grace so everyone can find salvation: Conversion of wayward souls
• Bring all of God’s creations under the domain of mankind: Building one empire of God
• Acquire knowledge and enlightenment, conquer your inner demons and sins and live righteously: Cultivation of the spirit

That is the crux of the Reclaiming. Boiled down to its roots, it is those three things. Not slavery, not war, not racial or class divisions. Those are all just the different ways people have tried to achieve it, right or wrong. If other nations cannot live with an Amarr that pursues these goals, even through peaceful methods, because there’s the chance that those goals will lead to conflict then there’s nothing to discuss.

Every nation has goals that can lead to conflict if acted on in certain ways. That doesn’t mean those goals should not be pursued. It means that that nation must work harder to ensure that it acts rightly instead of wrongly.

It doesn’t sound unfamiliar. It’s similar to how the Federation exports its culture and values, also thanks to Concord. Polar opposites in some ways, yet here we find a practise both interstellar organizations share. Interesting…

Indeed. The Federation has its own beliefs of what humanity should believe. Is it wrong of them, just because some people might want to spread those values through more forceful means?

@Teinyhr

So, what will the Empire do once it can subvert no more people to its cause? Turn to the sword again?

It will try harder. Maybe it turns to the sword again. Maybe it doesn’t. But it will always work to carry out the Reclaiming.

Reclaiming is why there can be no true peace between Amarr and any other culture in New Eden, only temporary truces.

Then there’s no point to this thread.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Samira_Kernher

Then there’s no point to this thread.

There we go. Took a while, but this indeed.

Conflict and war will be the only potential path to end this conflict, because neither side is ever going to willingly give up the core of their identities. Slavery, well it might have a peaceful solution if there’s enough pressure applied, but that is at best a delay before the conflicts rise again. The Tribes and even the Federation and State are potentially capable of peaceful coexistence but the Empire’s core edict of reclamation is a guaranteed war waiting to happen.

The only question is when.

[Tannia_Ambrye]

@Samira_Kernher

Is it wrong of them, just because some people might want to spread those values through more forceful means?

It would be wrong of the Federation to force others to accept their values, just ask the Caldari.

[Samira_Kernher]

I mean, is it wrong of them just to have those values, and to desire to export them to others, just because some adherents to them would want to force others to accept them. My point being, just because something can be carried out through coercive means, does not mean it will be, provided people have the desire to work to avoid using them.

[Tannia_Ambrye]

@Samira_Kernher

I mean, is it wrong of them just to have those values, and to desire to export them to others, just because some adherents to them would want to force others to accept them.

If the values lead the holder of said values to force another person to take on those values then either the one forcing them on others is acting inconsistently with those values, or there is something wrong with the values. Either way, an honest and critical look at those values would be important if not required.

@Samira_Kernher

My point being, just because something can be carried out through coercive means, does not mean it will be, provided people have the desire to work to avoid using them.

That may depend on how liberally those values can be reasonably interpreted and the context in which they’re applied.

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

@Tannia_Ambrye

short, what would be a more reasonable

Why repatriate damaged goods who are already accultured to Amarr society and the Amarr faith? We’ve seen the chaos it causes when Matari society tries to swallow these ex-slaves down in one lump - and you’re talking about chaos multiplied by however long it takes to achieve repatriation?

What the Matari should be angling for is the ending of GENERATIONAL slavery and claiming the children born of slaves. That way the Matari get a fresh start with blank slate citizens and the Amarr get to keep their workforce and allow attrition to phase out generational slavery as opposed to criminal slavery.

[Aergri_Evingod]

@Nana_Skalski

Amarrians could be Reclaiming ritualistically by singing chants and preaching to the choir.

although i see merits in this and I feel that a lightshow is amiss I see no market for this except the ones the federation has completely occupied.
considering that minmatar music has only started to have revival since a specific date it might be a long time until amarrian gospels will find a market.

considering the new matari state xobsidered here it might need support from different clans and amarrian civil bureaus to develop a working infrastructure.

[Aldrith_Shutaq]

And now we are discussing the second leg that holds up slavery as an institution within the Empire: religion and culture. As part of my initial post, it cannot be demanded we give up those portions of our culture to appease the Republic, just as we do not have the right to ask the free Minmatar in the Republic give up theirs unwillingly. This is not a workable position and if you truly hold it you will not be able to make an acceptable deal that would prevent armed conflict. If the Empire must resolve to refrain from affecting Minmatar culture by force, then the Republic must resolve to refrain from affecting Amarr culture by force. That includes accepting that the Imperial Rite’s indelible end goal is to unite humanity under God. This is only fair.

The Reclaiming is not going to go away. But, if it is going to stay and peacefully coexist with the rest of the cluster, it must be shifted from the realm of war and subjugation to the realm of discourse and hearts. The key is to incentivize the Empire (the Rites’s political representative and actor) to achieve its goals peacefully and perhaps without slavery as a growing component. This is where I will begin laying out concessions the Republic may make in return for the Empire reneging on slavery and conquest.

If the Empire is to be barred from spreading its culture and faith through these methods, then it must be allowed to more easily do so via other means. Within this realm, I suggest the following:

1. Amarr religious missions must be allowed to enter and operate within the Republic’s borders. These should be non-government organizations and non-state actors, for obvious reasons of preventing direct Imperial influence over their congregations. In return, the Republic must resolve to protect these missions and anyone following the Amarr faith from violence and discrimination. House Ardishapur is sure to support this.

2. Amarr cultural exports should be allowed free passage into and within the Republic. Arts of all mediums, educational material, and religious texts should not be specially taxed or controlled in any other way. House Kador would likely back this proposition.

3. The Republic will not place limits upon immigration and emigration to and from the Empire and Ammatar Mandate on a cultural basis. This will facilitate the movement of Minmatar who would wish to move to the Republic (or are deported for not converting after being freed), or move from it if conditions are not favorable for them.

All are straightforward and simple to implement, and would establish a precedent for peaceful cultural exchange and acceptance. However, cultural concessions are not the only ones that can help this process along. There are economic moves that the Republic, and even the Federation can make to facilitate this massive change the Empire would go through if it resolved to eliminate Minmatar slavery:

1. Trade agreements to both expand and control the flow of goods and services between the Amarr/Ammatar/Minmatar borders. It is far less appealing to wage a war with a regular trade partner, and both factions can benefit economically from the potential labor and supply imbalances caused by accelerated emancipation. House Tash-Murkon would be most interested in this.

2. A research agreement with the Gallente Federation to help advance Amarr automation technology. The Gallente are masters of drone technology which can help modernize the Empire’s economy and decrease the demand for slave labor. Almost every Holder in the Empire would welcome this technology as the supply of slaves diminishes. Costs of housing, feeding, raising, training, and controlling slaves can also be eliminated. Another boon for Tash-Murkon sensibilities.

3. Lump sum payments could be given to the Empire to be dispersed to Holders and municipalities to construct new housing, provide benefits and stimulate job growth for newly freed slaves that choose to remain within the Empire. The Republic should invest in the futures of their people both within their borders and without if they are to make demands pertaining to their status.

In return, the Republic would gain further guarantees of independence and peace, the steady emancipation of enslaved Minmatar with the intent of eliminating the status for them, an Imperial economy that demands fewer slaves in the long-run, and the easing of the burden of maintaining an oversized military geared towards repelling the threat of Imperial aggression.

Thoughts?

[Elmund_Egivand]

@Samira_Kernher

The Reclaiming is never going away. You can eliminate the institution of slavery and wars of expansion, but the Reclaiming is the single most important element of the faith. It is not going anywhere.

Then the Reclaiming will need to be reworked from active enslavement to missionary efforts instead. I honestly do not trust the Empire to ever abandon Reclaiming, but at least can’t the Empire just get rid of that whole ‘conquer and enslave’ part of the deal?

@Sah_Phyre

Let’s start with the easy ones - complete disarmament and cessation of all support of anti-Empire terrorist groups; removal of all restrictions on practicing the Amarr Faith, if any, and a crackdown on any persecution of the faithful to prevent another Abel Jarek incident; economic stimulus packages for planets with large populations of the newly freed slaves and partial or full shouldering of the costs of resettlement for any that choose to do so.

Terrorist groups are illegal and wouldn’t be giving a shite about laws or what the Council says, “Stop shooting at those Golden Ships.” So, complete disarmament isn’t happening. Instead, the Republic could do the cessation of all support part and the part with the more active policing against terrorist groups.

On the topic of the practice of the Faith, it isn’t restricted in the Republic, per se. The issue is the widespread intolerance of the practitioner against the Faith. I personally found that disgraceful, especially that bit where my fellow Minmatar figured the best way to deal with Matari missionaries is to burn down their chapel and slaughter the lot of them.

This, frankly, falls directly into internal matters of the Republic. Should be taking a tougher stance against that shite, to be honest. If at all possible, I wish my fellow Minmatar will just stop letting hot emotions run riot and let rationality prevail. Letting tempers flare hasn’t really helped our case, far as ‘fair exchanges’ go. Can we really admit that losing Nalfgars for that one kin-slayer is a fair exchange?

[Elmund_Egivand]

I can’t really address all the other points except point 2 and 3 (I have no problems with 1. Trade will always help).

The rationale I came up with for the gradual emancipation had alot to do with point 2 and 3. If all the emancipation is to be done at once, we get recession on both sides of the Border. However, by spreading out the emancipation over a long period of time, we also allow time for the economic engines of both sides to adapt to the change in workforce numbers. In the case of the Empire, it buys the Empire time to switch to non-slave method of labour management. Including the switch to automation.

The switch to automation is part of the deal. It is understood that the establishment of infrastructure to support automation is going to incur a massive short-term expense. That can be controlled, and one of the ways is to make it a slow, gradual switch. Gradual emancipation will give the Empire time to do just that.

[Tannia_Ambrye]

@Pieter_Tuulinen

What the Matari should be angling for is the ending of GENERATIONAL slavery and claiming the children born of slaves.

That’s an interesting take on it Mr Tuulinen. At least it gives the Minmatar children a life free from slavery. I wonder if our Minmatar friends will find it acceptable, or at least a step in the right direction?

Also, and more importantly, will the Amarr accept it or will your idea volatile their Reclaiming tenet?

[Tannia_Ambrye]

@Sah_Phyre

The whole institution has been on a downturn ever since the end of the militant phase of the Reclaiming nearly two centuries ago and I see few signs that it’s going to rebound anytime soon.

It’s amazing how these little embers of piety can flare into infernos “holy outrage” under the right conditions. I understand that Reclaiming can probably never be entirely removed, there will be too much resistance, so the best option is to change it somehow. I’m not sure how that can be done, and I don’t know how easy that would be to implement. I’ve already been told that Reclaiming can’t be changed to become more benign, so that may be a problem. I know the Amarr think of Reclaiming as a god given mandate, but from my perspective it’s a human idea and can certainly be changed.

[Mitara_Newelle]

@Teinyhr

And Khanid left the Amarr and generally gives the finger to Amarr traditions. Oops

You are conflating the former King Khanid, a descendant of True Amarr blood, with the Khanid bloodline.