Allow Capital Ships, Supercarriers, and Titans in Highsec

I did, but it didnt seem to matter to you.

And I like that you do, continue to make arguments please, it helps the thread and the ideas discussed here.

As opposed to nullsec locking down all of hisec? Kinda like, in your idea?

Nullsec cannot lockdown all of highsec, the only potential nuisance that nullsec can do is attack player citadels, in which case you can defend, or simply live out of NPC stations or use other people’s citadels. And doing this in highsec risks invasion in their nullsec space by another alliance.

And thats the difference between what you think what EVE is about, and what developers, the creators of this game, know what EVE is about.

You should never be safe, if you are undocked, anywhere in EVE. Anywhere.

You keep assuming developers are in your camp, no one knows what developers believe, unless they tell us. From what has happened, highsec has been significantly improved over the years, concord now guarantees that a suicide ganker is destroyed, no more perma ganks. And highsec is safe, if you buffer your ship, you have a rare chance of dying, that is safety, highsec does not make you impervious to attack.

Except that trade hubs based in citadels have distinct advantages over those based in NPC stations. This is why the Keepstar in Perimeter is both so popular and profitable. By “simply living out of NPC stations”, you’re forcing smaller corps to lose out on the fees earned from citadel trade hubs, and you’re forcing them into less-appealing trading positions since their fees are inherently higher. This cuts into their profitability exponentially; lower income and fewer sales.

What you described is precisely how you lock down hisec (at least from a trade standpoint). And nullsec blocs are starting the process already, even without capital ships in hisec.

Except that trade hubs based in citadels have distinct advantages over those based in NPC stations.

The only difference is the potential broker fee, which for trade hubs in citadels can be as low as 0, while in NPC stations the lowest is around 2.25% or so. However most if not almost all of the trade in jita happens in IV IV, not in perimeter in the citadel. You lose a small amount of margin profit yes, but that’s the price for the 100% safety of the NPC station.

By “simply living out of NPC stations”, you’re forcing smaller corps to lose out on the fees earned from citadel trade hubs, and you’re forcing them into less-appealing trading positions since their fees are inherently higher.

Losing the tax revenue of the citadel is the price for being unable to defend them, there are other ways for groups to raise revenue such as taxes, donations, buyback, or mining/pve ops that donate revenues to the group etc. And the difference in NPC tax vs citadels is slight, and can be significantly reduced with standings and skills.

This cuts into their profitability exponentially; lower income and fewer sales.

I disagree that a 2.25% or so broker fee is an exponential decrease in profit, even if someone spends the effort to kill all citadels in highsec, you can live out of NPC stations without a problem.

What you described is precisely how you lock down hisec (at least from a trade standpoint). And nullsec blocs are starting the process already, even without capital ships in hisec.

I disagree, worst case scenario you pay a few million more per industry job, and 2-4% more broker fees to put up buy and sell orders. You may run into issues with moon mining if the athanors keep getting attacked, but you can drop a single athanor per holding corp and make them pay constantly for wardec fees, and form an wardec alliance to ally with your structures and defend them.

Id say it doesnt help your cause and doesnt look good for you when we constantly respond, but you fail to respond back.

But youre saying that if its just 0.5-0.7, nullsec will be able to lockdown all 0.5-0.7 security space?

Yes, i do know what the devs think, because they already responded. Go read that post, it was made by a dev and posted by a dev.

This statement tells me that you aren’t all that familiar with hisec manufacturing. Margins are exceedingly slim, and in many cases, what you described would shut down an otherwise profitable venture.

This is exactly what “shutting down hisec” means. If you make it unprofitable, you drive your competition out of business. Drive enough competitors out of business, and suddenly you have the situation with the nullsec blocs all over again, only with hisec manufacturing and trading. Can you imagine an EvE where every item for sale in Jita was priced exclusively by three or four primary entities? It would be a nightmare.

Except that the nullsec blocs would pretty much laugh off something as trivial as wardec fees and keep vaporizing any non-bloc Anathor that pops up before it could even pay itself off in moon mining sales. It’s like Walmart undercutting their competitors: sure, it costs them money in the short term, but in the long term it puts competition out of business. Plus…phat Anathor kills that everyone in the bloc will want to be on.

Don’t turn New Eden into Buy 'N Large…

I don’t get why, when there is already an accepted problem with cap/super proliferation in the game, when we are seeing the detrimental effects in all sorts of ways, the devs would want to make it worse?

That seems completely counter productive.

Apparently its also a good thing.

It will be a good thing that mineral prices will drop, and that your battleship may only cost 10 million isk to buy in the future, when all hisec ore fields are barren because of the 10 rorquals per system that undock and empty it at the beginning of downtime.

That way, even new players can purchase battleships with ease!

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Yup, likewise i bet he will never understand why so many people move to places like the Mogul trading citadel in amarr, or the Tranquility tower in perimiter, when its actually a jump away, and therefore a massive inconvenience for traders to move large amounts of materials to. That extra few percent is huge, to serious traders.

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Id say it doesnt help your cause and doesnt look good for you when we constantly respond, but you fail to respond back.

Doesn’t matter if it does not help my argument, if there are flaws your arguments expose them and then they can be corrected, to make my proposal stronger.

But youre saying that if its just 0.5-0.7, nullsec will be able to lockdown all 0.5-0.7 security space?

I don’t support a restricted release, it is either full highsec access or no change, partial release locks down the valuable areas of highsec 0.5 moon mining, chokepoints etc, and gives no benefit to the rest of the space. That comment means that due to NPC station existence, highsec cannot be completely conquered, you may have a harder time if you constantly lose, but you will never be able to be kicked down further than living out of NPC stations.

Yes, i do know what the devs think, because they already responded. Go read that post, it was made by a dev and posted by a dev.

I don’t see how that attacks my argument, or supports yours. Concord is there to punish, and they punish, and yes with enough effort anything can be destroyed in the game, I don’t deny that. However you complain that it will be harder to gank capitals, in which case I reply with harden up and get more fleet members if you want to gank, ganking takes work and shouldn’t be made easy for you.

This statement tells me that you aren’t all that familiar with hisec manufacturing. Margins are exceedingly slim, and in many cases, what you described would shut down an otherwise profitable venture.

That is the fault of game mechanics, nullsec gets a vast buff to reprocessing etc, making them more efficient in industry. As for margins many items already are unprofitable, builders can react and adapt to the market very well, they will not have issue.

This is exactly what “shutting down hisec” means. If you make it unprofitable, you drive your competition out of business. Drive enough competitors out of business, and suddenly you have the situation with the nullsec blocs all over again, only with hisec manufacturing and trading. Can you imagine an EvE where every item for sale in Jita was priced exclusively by three or four primary entities? It would be a nightmare.

I disagree, if it becomes unprofitable, then nullsec can sell cheaper yes, but the prices will never rise above the margin where highsec NPC station building becomes profitable, so highsec is not shutdown. Paying 5% more for items will be unnoticed by the vast majority of the players, and that is assuming that highsec is only able to exclusively use NPC stations.

Can you imagine an EvE where every item for sale in Jita was priced exclusively by three or four primary entities? It would be a nightmare.

Won’t ever happen, and if someone tries it through market manipulation they can never go above the NPC station industry profit margin, or else they get undercut by NPC station builders.

Except that the nullsec blocs would pretty much laugh off something as trivial as wardec fees and keep vaporizing any non-bloc Anathor that pops up before it could even pay itself off in moon mining sales. It’s like Walmart undercutting their competitors: sure, it costs them money in the short term, but in the long term it puts competition out of business. Plus…phat Anathor kills that everyone in the bloc will want to be on.

Vast majority of athanors never get attacked in highsec, while there will be more firepower yes, you can still defend them, the fees still add into the cost for the attacker, and you can batphone their rivals to help you defend the structures if you want. Remember highsec gets capitals too, its not unrealistic for a good Samaritan group that has large stores of capital ships offer their services to defend any highsecer who gets attacked by nullsecers etc.

Don’t turn New Eden into Buy 'N Large…

It won’t, and WALL-E was a great movie.

I don’t get why, when there is already an accepted problem with cap/super proliferation in the game, when we are seeing the detrimental effects in all sorts of ways, the devs would want to make it worse?

The rationale is similar to the MAD doctrine of nuclear powers. If capitals exist, then the more you have the more powerful you are. Under game theory, different players will want to obtain the respective firepower and technology of their rivals, so that they can reach a state of balance, because if they do not, then the weaker will inevitably be attacked by the stronger.

Since completely removing capitals from the game will harm ccp, in mass protests, player quits, and issue with nullsec population, the existence of these ships remains. However if you only allow a certain group to have these ‘nuclear weapons’, then they will inevitably be superior, in firepower, financial income etc. If highsec however is able to have these weapons and tools, then not only can the map be balanced, but nullsec may even get additional content, on behalf of invading highsec forces, which currently almost never happens.

That seems completely counter productive.

It’s the only logical way to balance, if you do not wish to remove capitals from the game, which is another method.

Apparently its also a good thing.

It will be a good thing that mineral prices will drop, and that your battleship may only cost 10 million isk to buy in the future, when all hisec ore fields are barren because of the 10 rorquals per system that undock and empty it at the beginning of downtime.

That way, even new players can purchase battleships with ease!

You have moon ores, and if that is not the case you can always have missions in order to make money, you are assuming that players will not pursue the most profitable avenue of isk making. Finally, if prices get cheaper, isk has more purchasing power, and if more isk is injected, prices rise. Due to this, the market will balance itself out, you won’t this post apocalyptic situation that you imagine.

Yup, likewise i bet he will never understand why so many people move to places like the Mogul trading citadel in amarr, or the Tranquility tower in perimiter, when its actually a jump away, and therefore a massive inconvenience for traders to move large amounts of materials to. That extra few percent is huge, to serious traders.

They go there because its slightly cheaper to place buy and sell orders, you think that I do not know this. However if that avenue is not available, then they can simply place their orders in Jita or Amarr for slightly highser sell prices, and slightly lower buy prices, balancing out the loss of cheaper taxes. People have been trading in NPC stations since 2003, they haven’t forgotten how to do so since citadels came out.

I disagree with your conclusion, but kudos for getting the movie reference.

:wink:

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I disagree with your conclusion, but kudos for getting the movie reference.

Hey, our disagreements make our positions stronger, I welcome yours.

:slight_smile:

Ratting in high sec is not a rival for ratters in null, they are not in the same league, one is the kiddie league and one is the pros.

The kiddie league doesn’t need capital ships.

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Ratting in high sec is not a rival for ratters in null, they are not in the same league, one is the kiddie league and one is the pros.

The concept that nullsec is the ‘superior’ region needs to go away, the majority of paying players are in highsec, highsec is only a different region with different gameplay styles, it is equal to nullsec.

The kiddie league doesn’t need capital ships.

Highsec needs capital ships, because without them this distinction that nullsec is ‘superior’ will continue to be a thing, which harms the game.