An Argument for Newbies in Cruisers


Greetings!

The purpose of this post is to make a case for altering the traditional community advice for alphas and newbies to “hop into a T1 frigate and join a fleet” in order to get into the PvP action and switch to advising cruisers instead. Having been a newbie myself, albeit a few years ago, and also watching newbies and listening to them, I find that, in general, most newbies are either not interested in PvP right off the bat or, if they are, they do not understand the mechanics well enough to take full advantage of their ships’ strengths, especially in a frigate.

This leads to situations where they become frustratingly aware that they are not very good at PvP, but it is over so quickly they often have no idea what even happened or what they could do to improve. This, in turn, causes them to lose confidence or avoid PvP entirely, and while there is certainly something to be said for the baptism in flame, it must also be pointed out that even CCP believes it’s necessary for newbies to have some uninterrupted personal time to learn the mechanics of flight without being doused in cold bacon grease by gankers, as the rules about newbie systems proves.

After watching different types of newbies respond to different ships, I feel confident in making this post as an argument in favor of the above advice. Also, I just like thinking in type.


Some Assumptions and Preamble

Firstly, not all players are the same. Some players seem BORN to frig, so advising them to get into a bigger ship will just dampen their enthusiasm. This includes tackle enthusiasts, aggressive hunter types, quality scouts, etc. Further, some of them have their hearts and souls dedicated to getting into battleships, no matter what you tell them, and will do whatever it takes to get there. However, just as in most things, these sorts of specialist personalities are a minority, and my suggestions are for the larger population of newbies.

Secondly, this is not to be considered a statement that they should max out the cruiser/battlecruiser classes first. My reasons for cruisers/battlecruisers are below, but it must be noted that this is intended for introducing players to the game concepts and mechanics, not for where they should all be slotted or what they will eventually do. As they become more comfortable with the game, they will naturally branch into what they enjoy doing.

Thirdly, I understand as well that the primary reason frigates are recommended to newbies is as a low-initial-investment response to the question, “so what can I do in this game right now as a newbie?”, usually part of some elaborate pitch on how they can do anything and go anywhere from Minute 1. I certainly can appreciate that response, but for more long-term involvement with newbies I believe my arguments hold their own in general application far better.


And now, without further ado: An Argument in Favor of Cruisers/Battlecruisers Being the Preferred Ship for Newbies


Reasoning against smaller ships:

  1. Effectiveness and application are low for fresh players, due to an unfamiliarity with the controls and the speed with which frigate combat occurs. Destroyers are marginally better, but are based around the “glass cannon” concept, which can lead to newbie reflexes being frustratingly unequal to the tasks asked of them.

  2. The speedy pace of frigate and destroyer combat is not generally a good match for the reflexes of new pilots, even if it might match their aggressiveness.

  3. A feeling of irrelevance in combat develops in the pilot due to the ease of their defeat, which leads to a reduction in logins by the pilot and therefore a gradual disconnect from the game.

  4. There is a clear lack of tank and therefore survival, which affects their ability to grasp what’s going on and learn from it. As one gets better at anything, the ability to respond to situations will improve over time; there is, however, little more frustrating than consistently being destroyed before realizing what’s happening.

  5. Increase in frustration due to inexperience with combat combined with adrenaline leading to an escalation in negative experience in the game, especially if their mistakes are corrected in the half-sarcastic tones veterans tend to have habitually. Regardless, the rush leads to a charge of emotions that become focused against one’s own allies when corrected after a fight they already know they had no impact in, regardless of the intentions or tone of the correcting vet.

Reasoning against larger ships (battleships):

  1. Training time is immense for what they’d initially get, particularly before subsidiary skills in the chosen weapons systems are trained. (gunnery, trajectory analysis, etc)

  2. Ability to apply damage is nearly non-existent due to not having the right skills to apply damage to large ships and simply not even hitting small ships.

  3. Expense is downright terrifying for fresh pilots, and is in the majority of cases completely impractical to sustain in any way on their own.

  4. Training time needs mentioning again, because the ship hulls and basic skills take long enough without factoring in any of the mid-layer skill trainings. It’s a tall order for fresh players to just login to a game they know little about and then have their skill queues restricted in this way for the next month or so.

Reasoning in favor of cruisers and battlecruisers:

  1. Low training time; approximately 19-22 hours to train from level 0 of frigate until L1 cruiser for non-pirate factions, allowing pilots to train to t1 fits within 24-30 hours from a start of 0, and have all related weapon skills to 3 within a week or so, with time available to train other skills. Further, the training into Battlecruisers is primarily in the actual ship piloting skill, as they tend to use the same weapon size as the cruisers except in the case of the Large weapon hulls.

  2. Ability to apply damage across a broad variety of targets, as each faction has cruisers and battlecruisers that can specialize in applying above or below their weight class, not to mention their own weight class, giving newbies a broader set of options when responding to situations.

  3. More appropriate for primary fleet doctrines across New Eden, creating higher levels of viability for new pilots.

  4. Balanced expense to purchase and train; the ease of replacement compared to larger ships combines with a lower skill training time to make it within simple reach of the newbie without sacrificing potential for damage.

  5. Reduced rapidity of combat due to higher tank and lower movement speed allows the slower reaction speeds of newbies to catch up with the state of combat and, if nothing else, gives them time to begin understanding the flow of what’s going on, even if they still die in a fire in the end.

While not exhaustive in arguments for either side, this should serve to address the primary concerns and show the particulars of why I believe veterans should move away from the rote recommendation that new players “hop in a T1 frigate and begin pew-pew” and shift it to “Get into a T1 cruiser and begin pew-pew”. Further, as mentioned above, since Battlecruiser is a short train period away (I am assuming L3 training for the skills involved), they can also become involved in most of what New Eden has to offer combat-wise relatively quickly, even if that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily the best at it. Then again, that argument also applies to frigates, whose downsides I have already described.

I hereby post this and eagerly await the blistering responses of my fellow capsuleers. If I wake up tomorrow, log in, and don’t immediately begin weeping in shame and self-loathing, I shall assume you were all drunk or upset there’s no TL:DR and therefore weren’t at your A-game. Or didn’t care. Either way!

Also, I get the distinct feeling there may be some repetition in the points, or a muddling of points. As it is midnight and I haven’t had caffeine in 7 hours, however, my proofreading capacity is somewhere between the bottom of the couch and the floor. Good luck!

END

2 Likes

This is terrible advice.

Frigates have an even shorter training time. There goes point 1.

Newbros aren’t utilized for the sake of applying damage. T1 Ewar frigates are used because ewar as a force multiplier increased the effectiveness of the fleet.

A single newbro in a Rupture that can’t even lock, let alone shoot at a target when the rest of the fleet is flying Muninns is useless. A single newbro in a Vigil that’s specially fit to lock long ranges AND target paint can contribute to the fleet by raising Signature Radius of the targets for everyone else.

T1 Ewar ships can fit this too.

T1 Ewar frigates are STILL cheaper to purchase and train.

will just lead them to falling behind and dying. This is useless advice.

2 Likes

i used exclusively frigates and destroyers for years
now im using cruisers to
pros: you can engage and kill t2 frigs , kikis and other targets
cons: you will get ganked and loose 3 to 4 times more

i thinks is better for noobs to train in small ships first
them go to cruisers

i all up to 50 millions t1 cruisers they are awesome
but you need to know what to do first

edit:
btw
50 mil t1 cruiser fitted , 100 mil navy cruiser fitted , 200 mil pirate cruiser fitted
good numbers to use in t2 modules pvp fitted cruisers

You make some good points, and frigate PvP is especially unforgiving of mistakes. That being said, I don’t think I would be too keen on learning how to PvP in cruisers and battlecruisers if I still made 10-20 mil an hour. Meh. I don’t know. Something to think about at least… er, I mean… you’re an idiot. Biomass immediately. :slight_smile:

2 Likes

I fly a destroyer.

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Frigate PvP is unforgiving but it’s also dirt cheap. Cruiser PvP isn’t really that much forgiving (see how fast a cruiser dies) but it’s pretty expensive for a newbro, losing even one properly fitted cruiser could be burning a huge hole in a newbro’s wallet.

As a newbie the hardest thing I found in my first fleets was anticipating what was going to happen (everything was new!), so keeping up with the fleets was tough.

Put a newbie in a cruiser and with his low skills (and therefore slower align times) and little experience in fleets he will probably lag behind and get killed. Put that newbie in a frigate instead and they can more easily keep up with the fleet.

If a newbie wants to know what kind of ship he could bring to a fleet, I would point them to my favourite ewar frigate: the Maulus.

You’re fragile, but your tank is ‘stay out of range and warp off if something gets close’. You can get on any killmail just by applying your damps. You get to see fleet combat and are more effective than in a cruiser that doesn’t have the skills to shoot at the range the rest of the fleet is shooting at, because sensor damps have an incredible range and are always effective, because nobody likes getting damped.

For fleet pvp: put newbies in EWAR frigates. It shows them how fleet combat goes, gives them some clear goals (try to look at enemy ships and distinguish the best target to apply your EWAR to, or just put it on the closest one), allows them to help the fleet by burning pings around objectives in their frigate and at the end of the run it’s just a cheap loss mail of a couple million ISK.

Don’t put newbies in cruisers.

1 Like

Wont they just get caught and killed on a gate in a cruiser? At least in a frig they have a chance to actually get somewhere.

I like frigates so far, also flew a destroyer gifted to me. I really want to fly cruisers but I know I can’t afford to lose it.

Yeah I don’t see how this could be considered good advice for newbies for reasons already stated, and once they are established both financially and experience wise to can afford to lose them and already know how to minimize their losses they are no longer newbies. For learning, frigates are much better and cheaper, they can lose countless times more thus earn much more experience and know how for the same amount of ISK and have much less of a hard time doing so.

I awaken and sip mountain dew, realize I have made the error of posting on the Eve forums, and open the browser. Lo! I have received what I have earned, the logical counters to my arguments that I clearly could not perceive before. However, so as not to merely shrink from wise and/or clear argument against me, I now go forth into the thread and acknowledge that I can be wrong, as I often am.

Just… Another sip may be necessary…


I at least appreciate your willingness to explain the statement, good sir.

Will not disagree, as that is true.

My thought was more that you can actually build a fleet around cruiser-classes easier, but the point is clear: the meta is not T1, and they will not survive such a thing.

And I appreciate the harshness, as I do not play Eve because it is kind. Your points are well-made and I appreciate you taking the time to correct my misaligned view.


Ah, thank you, good sir, for your input. For some strange reason, in spite of how often it has happened to me, I had forgotten about the gank. You are correct, naturally, but I thank you for taking the time to at least list your experiences.

I will confess, good sir, that I had been planning around something other than T2 fitted cruisers, so those numbers were not in my mind. It is good that they have been established, and I will remember them in the future.


You both honor me with your input, and wound my sensitive and ever-delicate ego with your appropriately-EVE words. I must go preen in front of a mirror and then drink myself into stupefication.


Was there ever any doubt?


I confess that I had been looking at purely hull prices while writing it up, so I thank you for the reminder that the modules are actually the primary expense.


Yet another thing to remember going forward, that align times are a thing! Another good rationale against my post.

Thank you for your clearly-written reply, I appreciate an informative response even when it is crushing my arguments like a tin can.


You are most likely correct, I appreciate the input.


Your perspective is appreciated and, considering the subject matter, probably most appropriate. Thank you for responding.


First, I must inform you that your name makes me grin.

Secondly, you are quite correct, the cost is vastly different between frigates and cruisers, and if they know how to mitigate that they are no longer newbies.


I appreciate everyone taking the time out of their days to hammer some wrong ideas out of my head, and even with several measures of courtesy and clarity. I shall pursue other ideas and leave this one to wither away.

3 Likes

You should check my corp too. :wink:

:dealwithitparrot:

Holy crap, someone posting on the forums whose idea just got ripped apart and not throwing a massive tantrum over it and calling everyone names??

IMPOSTOR! OP is sus. :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes

Forum needs more posters like OP in spirit if not content.

3 Likes

As soon as you figure out how these newbies are going to earn the 12-15 million ISK for replacing a very basic cruiser fit as fast as the 60 seconds it will take them to lose one, let us know.

Until then, it’s hard to recommend “learning PvP” in something it’s going to take a newbie 2-3 hours to replace and 1 minute to lose.

The point of using frigates is to get them past the initial wake-up calls of being insta-locked, scrammed, neuted, gate-camped, smart-bombed and all the other ways they’re going to die before they even realize what’s happening, using only the ISK and ships they make from running a set or two of career agents. Then they’re ready to try something more expensive once they’re aware of just how quickly they can lose to various situations.

2 Likes

I worked so long and hard to get my first cruiser (a Moa!). I lost it in about five seconds because I didn’t understand the difference between a war target and somebody with terrible corp standing. This was before the new red, yellow, green dummy buttons (and way before plex).

I’ll bet it took me at least two weeks of mission running and mining to get that thing.

Good times.

2 Likes

The only real issue with this would be that New pilots would be forking out 50-60 million isk for a fitted cruiser

ie; Thanks to BjornBee and his friends for this fit.
[Thorax, Thorax]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer
Reactive Armor Hardener
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Booster I
Medium Capacitor Booster I
Initiated Compact Warp Scrambler
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier

Light Neutron Blaster I
Light Neutron Blaster I
Light Neutron Blaster I
Light Neutron Blaster I
Light Neutron Blaster I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5

Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S x400
Nanite Repair Paste x64
Federation Navy Uranium Charge S x800
Navy Cap Booster 800 x7

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