Alternative to ban pirate hulls from novice fw complex

i think many players active in factional warfare areas would agree, that a problem with overwhelmingly powerful ships that are allowed into a complex does exist.
in fact, every time i see the topic “issues in fw” discussed, someone will suggest very quickly to ban pirate hulls from novice complexes to solve this issue.
i think that this suggestion does have some merits, but also falls way to short because:

if we ban pirate hulls from novice complex…

  • the next powerhouse (i am looking at you, comet) in line will take its place
  • we deny fw players from gaining experience with hulls that are not THAT expensive

in other words, banning pirate hulls from novice complex would not fix anything. the issue is not the dramiel, but the blingy dramiel. a blingy comet would take its place and be just about as bad as.

actual suggestion here ↓

instead of banning more hulls, ban more modules. i suggest that we disallow complex “type” modules from entering at least novice (and possibly small) complexes.

in anticipation of the outcries that will follow, i will address a few arguments that i am sure will come up:

  • how am i supposed to fight 1v10 without bling?

a:
i do not think you are. the issue with pimped out pirate ships in fw complexes is, that (without bling) it is almost impossible to fight against them - even with superior numbers. i think this is not a problem and even awesome in most areas of eve. however, the factional warfare system was created to give younger players a playground to get gud at pvp. i think we should remember that many of them have to be happy if they can fly a t2 fitted ship.

  • fw players should just harden up and fly expensive, too

a:
generally, in most areas of eve, i agree. but let us keep in mind for whom this environment was created. i think it is unreasonable to expect pimp fits from the target audience, and to my experience, the vast majority of the pimped fits that ever enter a fw complex, are neutrals.

  • fw should not become kindergarten!

a:
yes and no. though i am sure if this suggestion would be implemented many players would adopt a stance of superiority against the “protective” environment that then would protect players from uneven pvp, i also think this would offer a great way to further differentiate fw space from the rest of eve, and even add value to the killmails. “look ma, i killed that worm in my hookbill - without any bling!”

  • i generally do not like to limit the maximum available power level of an envoirement

a:
already fw complexes do exactly this, but only on ship type level. i think it would make a lot of sense to expand this to modules as well.
after all, if you do not like a limited power level at all, fw complexes already should be on your no-fly list.

to sum it up:

i think its great that neutrals visit fw complexes because i love content. however, no matter what opinion one has if or how the fw environment should be changed, it is a fact that there is a LOT of frustration and discontent among the fw players because they feel that they very often do not get the content they have signed up for, and instead get farmed by players that make their living in other regions of eve and just visit for the easy kills.
i think this frustration is a BIG issue, because it makes many pilots stop fighting at all and instead become farmers that avoid any and all fights. and here i think is one of the huge issues with fw: farmers.
i think to fix fw, we need to discourage farmers, and we need to provide content that is enjoyable even for less established players.
i thought long and hard about it, and i am sure it can NOT be fixed by banning additional ship types from certain complexes, but i am quite sure it can be improved by limiting the maximum power level that is available within the content.

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I don’t think the facility to ban modules exists.

Anyways, the problem IS the hulls. A scram bonus on the garmur, the web bonus on the daredevil and cruor, the AB bonus on the succubus etc

These are the mods that get blinged to compound on the bonus and make them overwhelmingly powerful.

The comet or slicer doesn’t do the same thing. (although I’d happily see them excluded from novices too).

warpstabs are banned so it does exist. in any case, the question if it can be done should be answered by devs if they decide the suggestion makes sense

well i don’t agree. without bling, the hulls are strong but can be countered. only when they are blinged out, it becomes very very difficult to counter them (without bling).
as you said yourself, it only really becomes an issue when the strong pirate hull boni are compounded with powerful ds-modules.
in the end, i do not think just strong is a problem. overpowering strong is.

True that.

Deadspace modules are strong, but so are abyssal modules (or both). Abyssal modules are not necessarily bling - they can be a necessity for fit to work at all. But armor repair/shield booster modules with an awesome roll (~1 in 20 chance) are quite potent even with lowest mutaplasmid and can be considered “bling”.

But there is no way for system to differentiate between necessity and bling in this case.

i think abyssal t2 modules would be very much less of an issue then abyssal complex modules tough.

but yes. of course players would try to push any boundary to its limit. this has to be expected and accepted.
also it is not the question if this change would make any fight even (it would not) but if it would help to make the environment more enjoyable.

Name a single pirate frig that hasn’t died to t1 frigs. Countering them is possible and has been done, even when they were linked, high grade, and more powerful before nerfs.

FW needs to step it up and use links, implants, pirate frigs and drugs too. There’s nothing to prevent it and isk potential is there to allow for it. Or they can fly smarter with more friends.

The content was never intended to cater to beginners. The complexes were designed to offer pvp opportunities for a select range of ships. They do this well and pirate frigs really don’t have any appeal if you can’t bling them.

The issue is other people being ignorant of, or refusing to use, the same tools and attribute enhancing items that pirate hull users almost exclusively put to use.

Name a single anything that hasn’t died to T1 frigates, given sufficient skill advantage. Maybe capital ships that have enough passive shield regen to be literally impossible to kill? The simple fact here is that the existence of pirate frigates skews the meta and all other frigates might as well not exist. And “you can also use the overpowered thing” is not an argument that the game is balanced.

Who was talking about capital ships?

As for balance. Should a perfect skilled t1 meta fit frigate (5m) be able to contend with a perfect skilled
pirate frig 50m+
supported by implants up to 1 bill
And drugs 20m(granted a happy no drawback roll)
And elite mods 60- 120m+

Do the math. You want to balance things, up the ante and risk more on the table before you try to remove cards from the deck.

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Don’t be an arse hole. Faction warfare is often cited as a place for new bros to try out pvp.

Epeen warriors can still use pirate hulls. Just not in novice sites.

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this suggestion is NOT about banning pirate hulls from novice sites.

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i am all for that.
would you care to try to kill a 2b bling fitted pirate frig with a t1 frig without blinging it to the max yourself? as said, this suggestion is not about banning pirate hulls, and there is an insane difference between a blinged out pirate hull and a t2 fitted pirate hull.
i think one is fine, the other breaks the environment :wink:

It’s about banning certain mods in novice sites vs certain hulls in novice sites.

Nobody, you apparently missed the point there. You said “but pirate frigates have been killed by T1 frigates”, but everything has been killed by a T1 frigate at some point in the history of EVE. There have been so many fights in the history of EVE with so much variation in skill level that if you look hard enough you’ll eventually find a victory for the T1 frigate. The only possible exception might be capital ships, and only because a T1 frigate can’t break their passive shield regen. So your claim, while true, is utterly pointless to make.

The real test is not “has this ever died to a T1 frigate”, it’s “can a T1 frigate have a reasonable win rate” and the answer is “**** no”. A win for the T1 frigate is a fluke victory and almost certainly involves a significant skill advantage, and the fact that bad players can lose with pirate frigates does not make them balanced.

As for balance. Should a perfect skilled t1 meta fit frigate (5m) be able to contend with a perfect skilled
pirate frig 50m+
supported by implants up to 1 bill
And drugs 20m(granted a happy no drawback roll)
And elite mods 60- 120m+

Exactly the point! Pirate frigates are expensive and immensely more powerful than T1 frigates, such that the T1 frigate has no hope of winning and the player’s only realistic option is to also buy a pirate frigate. Therefore pirate frigates should not be counted as “T1 frigates” for balance purposes and should not be allowed into the lowest-tier FW plexes.

IMO neither is fine. Even without the expensive high-end fits pirate frigates completely outclass T1 to the point that there’s no reason to ever fly T1 unless you can’t afford the better ship. Allowing them in novice sites, even with pure T1/T2 fits, continues to make those sites effectively “pirate frigates only” instead of “T1 frigates for newbies”.

The major problem here isn’t only with high value mods, but is the gate screening for high grade implants too? And combat boosters are also a thing.

Imo, snakes should reduce mass indexes and not buff speed directly. There are other ways to balance things without drastic measures, such as limiting the use of ships or mods, which only hurts the quality of pvp that is possible in novices. Small good changes here and there, rather than an artificial ceiling that makes limited edition tournament frigates something you NEVER see, and for good reason.

As for t1 and faction being unable to fight off bling pirate class. Sorry, but that was what I enjoyed the most. I’ve seen them all die to smarter flying, and, by comparison, with less than a quarter of Isk used to bring them down.

Yes, I get that you enjoy being able to dump a ton of ISK into making a blatantly overpowered ship and then take it into a class-restricted PvP site to fluff up your killboard stats but that is not good for the game. Pirate frigates are not T1 from a balance point of view, they should not be allowed into the T1 frigate sites.

Novices were never intended to be predominantly t1 content, and I WAS the one in t1 hulls killing the pirate ships. It can be done. It’s like an extreme sport and you don’t really risk that much to t2 fit frigates to make the attempt.

Of course not, clearly CCP didn’t intend for them to be T1 content when they set the class restriction to “T1 frigates only”. Why would anyone ever make such a bizarre assumption?

It can be done.

It can be done, with sufficient skill advantage. But you’re still ignoring the point that pirate frigates vastly outclass T1 frigates and should not be considered “T1 frigates” for purposes of a T1 frigate only class-restricted PvP site.

PS: a T1 frigate can kill a T2 frigate but we still don’t let T2 frigates into novice sites.

This thread isn’t about restricting hulls. Even if it was, where else would you see pirate class frigates being used to the bleeding edge of their potential? FW offers that opportunity.

But by your reason, not even navy class could be considered t1, and the FACTIONS not being able to use their own line of ships is a pretty ridiculous conclusion.