I suspect I’m much closer to that info than you are, but go on then fella, elaborate, let’s see who schools who on the various techniques used by Goons past and present.
Probably true. However its interesting to see how people adapt.
Are you? Because they’ve been raking in billions daily doing abyssals in absolute safety in null for a long time. I’d estimate hearing about this from a goon, at least 6 months back. And he’s been doing it since then.
All of them have. Because they can run abyssals in complete safety, pipe it up to high, profit.
Not to mention contracts on high rolled abyssal items. They’ve been dual boxing jacks for months.
Yennoe, for all the hate they get, I’m starting to see from this thread that a lot of is jealously. And that all null alliances def aren’t cut the same.
If ya’ll can’t figure out how to make ISK, seems to me you’re the ones failing.
The past? That’s already gone bruv. They’ve adapted. You haven’t.
Hence you and your friends crying to daddy CCP to save you.
It’s pathetic 
I also like how you drew the short straw to having to keep the thread going
@Asher_Elias you’ve been found out! forget market moving, this is where it’s at!
The solution isn’t making them harder to build that only causes them to not be undocked at all. The solution is making them necessary to be used and forcing them into space with those large assets where they can be engaged and destroyed. I agree Tidi makes fights like that a pain in the but and that’s a server-side thing that they need to fix. The already replaced mentality is not a bad one. Hell everything, I own including my one dread already has the ISK set aside to replace it or other assets to sell set aside to replace it. Means I am going to be a lot less hesitant to actually put that on the field if I think for one second that the risk of losing it is worth the gain from putting it out there.
I would say that yes there needs to be more things to use titans on than PvP. Somebody suggested bigger rats ect in null sec. I think that would be a great thing that can tie into the faction warfare changes they are working on. Your alliance declares for Amarr as an example well now your space is going to be attacked by Mimintar incursions that can cost you sov, stations, and should have all size of sites including sites that can only be done by Titans to drive off the incursion. Add in the ability for Mimintar allies (alliances that have declared for them) to enter your space without those incursion rats attacking and now you have something that encourages more content.
No, the issue is that due to the scarcity and industry changes no one is out using those large assets, it’s not worth the cost. Those large assets not being out in space causes less content. Less content brings less players, that is something else the OP did bring up is add stuff for us to lose those big assets to. It’s not just about being able to stockpile more, it’s about wanting to use them and not be punished for risking them and losing them.
Rating in a super should bring enough isk to be able to justify putting that out on the field. With the industry changes a super damn near doubled in price to build, largest subcap that you can fly will talk about 13 hours to replace give or take a couple of hours depending on your fittings. (2 bill divided at an average of 150 mill an hour) compared to a super that will take around 346 hours of grinding just for the hull. (52 bill cost to build divided by an average of 150 mill) at an average play time of 2 hours a day you are looking at 7 days to replace one of the more expensive sub caps compared to almost 6 months to replace a capital. Should it take longer absolutely. It’s not just the cost to replace though thats the issue. Its any kind of ISK generation outside of doing Poch, Abyssal runs, ect has been nerfed into the floor.
Personally I am ok with the industry changes in requiring extra materials. Combine that with scarcity however, the ratting changes, the DBM, and the market changes and now you have a situation where its harder to make ISK, harder to farm the items to just build it yourself, and more expensive to boot to buy the things you cannot gather on your own. This makes it to where the assets just don’t get used. What is better that asset being in space getting used and and possibly getting killed or all 50 just sitting in station gathering dust? Add in the price hike and it was pretty much the straw that broke the camels back in this case.
So you want the reward but not the risk, even if you are sitting in 50 of them?
Its not really about the game at that stage is it?
No the reward needs to scale with the size of the asset you are risking. If I am risking a 52-bill ship, the reward I get for risking that ship should justify the cost of said ship. When you can make more ISK and risk less like you can with any sub cap that is an issue. It becomes not worth undocking the bigger stuff at all. Why risk it? I can make just as much or more risking a whole lot less currently.
If there’s too much of a thing it needs to be reeled in. Simple basic logic anyone can and should agree to even if they themselves do too much of that thing. The people who refuse to see it that way are self centered narcissists and that means they should never be listened to when it comes to anything game balance related, ever.
There’s someone in this thread who makes a ton of isk but what he does not many people do, it takes quite a lot of activity and understanding, his safety and risk management solely relies on his own efforts and wariness. He stated “this is probably gonna get nerfed real soon”, and if it does get nerfed he’s not gonna be happy about it but he’s going to accept it going “yup, saw that coming”.
And that is the difference: mindless effortless grinding done by people who start raging and crying when things, that should be nerfed because it’s out of whack, DO get nerfed. Excessive (material) grinding and production caused problems both from a market/play style balance pov as a fleet composition/pvp balance pov. If you’re unwilling to admit to that then there’s nothing more to discuss because you’re either lying or clueless.
So you want a reward of 52b for a task that you need a 52b isk ship for?
You do realise how out of scale to every other task in EvE that is, right? (Except Venture mining because free ships slant the scale)
And whats the percent chance of losing that ship in this theoretical task? 50%? 20%? 5%?
Did I say that?? No. I said the reward needs to scale with the level of the asset you are risking. If you are making the same amount risking a 2 bill ship that you do risking a 52 bill ship (you don’t make 2 bill on anything risking that 2 bill ship) there is something wrong with that. It shouldn’t take me the same amount of time grinding in my 2 bill ship to replace the 52 bill. If it takes me 6+ months to make that 52 bill (average 2 hours a day at 150 mill an hour) to replace the ship than using that 52 bill ship should allow me to shave off a bit of time due to making more per hour. Even at an average of 2 hours play time at a rate of 200 mill an hour it takes the time from 6+ months to slightly over 4 months. Meaning while I am only making 50 mill more an hour using said super, I am saving myself about 2 months of time. Also, because I have it on grid for longer there is a greater chance of it dying compared to my paladin that I can replace in 13 hours total or less depending on drops and faction spawns.
Yes, it did cause issues, it’s one of the main reasons I don’t have an issue with the industry changes and in fact think they did not due quite enough in that regard. I think they should have added specific regional ore to empire space or pirate space that are required for that empire’s ships or pirate ships. One thing’s are still just as spendy to build but if you are in that particular space you are going to have an easier time building that factions ships.
They also should have added things that required supers and titans to be used and risked rather than encourage folks to not undock them at all (that may have not been their intention but that was the effect) People not undocking them at all doesn’t resolve the stockpile issue, it just exasperates it. Pilots going out and having said ships destroyed from underneath them on the other hand does resolve the stockpile issues. But that also takes me back to my point. I don’t care if somebody has 50 titans or 51 titans. Them owning that many titans in our current state does not impact me in anyway. Because they don’t undock them. Get those titans in space that impacts my game, now I get to go hunting and shoot them. Now I get to have fights over trying to kill them even if I lose my ships in the process.
Personally, I am all down for keeping the industry changes and adding a bit more to them. I am ok with ores being in different regions but get rid of residue and waste. I would be ok with ratting staying the same for current sites as long as we were given capital only sites where the payout was (and not by a ton and not locked behind gates) higher than the current sites that can only be done by capitals. We need more capitals getting destroyed rather than them spinning in a station.
Then how much should you make and what should the chance of loss be?
All Im reading from you is you wanting more isk for less risk.
Unless you advocate more risk but then I dont see why that would mean they are any more likely to be undocked.
Unrealistic. Also, very conveniently, forgoing the “grinding should be diminished” for very obvious reasons, of course.
Then either you are not understanding or have not actually read.
its pretty clear that putting a 52-bill ship on grid is inherently a greater risk of loss (26 times greater, I can buy 26, 2 bill ships for the price of 1 super) than putting a 2-bill ISK Paladin on the same grid for the same amount of reward. The reward doesn’t need to be a ton higher; it just needs to be high enough to actually justify the cost of that loss should it happen. I also gave you a ruff answer that you are asking for in my last response. Not a ton of an increase in ISK per hour, only 50 mil, but the time savings alone is enough to get a lot of pilots to put those supers on grid.
Why? if people enjoy grinding and it gets them to put those big assets on grid where we can destroy them how is that a bad thing? That goes back to my other point that I have made. People enjoy different things. You have people that have zero issues putting a Rorq on a belt for 10+ hours with a ton of mining barges and grinding away at it. I personally hate mining unless I am with a group of friends to talk to while I am doing it as its boring, but I love catching me a Rorq on grid and killing it. I also love having to save a Rorq or other capital from people. It provides content. Thats the issue, removing the grindy stuff (aka grass) got rid of the sheep for me to go hunt. It got rid of the wolves coming to hunt my friends for me to go save them.
How is it unrealistic? We already have concord beacons and frankly while the payouts need to be adjusted a bit to be bit lower its pretty much the only chance to catch capitals and kill them currently. Why not add in something similar for a Titan only or a Super only that pays just enough to justify doing it with said asset so that we have a chance to go catch and kill them?
It also doesn’t have to be PvE stuff, that gets them undocked and in space. As long as they are undocking and being at risk of being killed. PvE just happens to be an easier solution.
If you cant actually answer the questions then I dont see how anything CCP is going to do is going to satisfy you.
But given that these are your words;
“I streamed without opsec when I was doing abysall’s never got ganked once.” Im going with your desired risk of losing ship to be 0% and your desired reward to be 100% of value.
Ahh yes let’s equate taking steps to minimize risk with a desire to never lose a ship. Losing a ship is going to happen. Doesn’t matter what steps you take to minimize it. Somebody at some point is going to find you, kill you and loot your stuff. Either way I am done responding to you at this point as either.
A. You are a troll and just trying to get an argument going that gets folks banned or the thread permanently closed.
or
B. Not going to understand how Risk vs Reward and Return on Investment works no matter how I explain it.
Because
You know, the point you so desperately try to avoid.
And that is the whole issue: it IS an imbalance and thus CCP adjusted it. This whole thread is nothing but “Please CCP give us back the imbalance so my tax paying clone soldiers come back to me and I get to keep my power and (rl) income”.
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The absolute minimum risk is zero, ergo if you minimize it or have it minimized as far as possible then you wont lose a ship or are mathematically extremely unlikely to.
No, Im specifically asking you how much return per task you expect on a task which you need a 52b isk ship for, and what the reasonable chance for ship loss is and all youve given me is side stepping and now ad hominem.
I dont think you can answer those questions without betraying the fact that you think the game is about accumulating a vast pile of isk and ships to sit on, and how the rest of us should support that for some reason.
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No worries. I know why you’re dodging and deflecting
Where does it say this? So now that there’s real risk, you’re wussing out
Welcome to EVE
There is no where saying you should always have a justification for a ship. Sometimes you get blapped. The funny thing is I can think of many tactical solutions to this problem.
Why can’t you?
Why? Is the only reward you can think of is ISK?
Oh. So you’re bad at the game. You should have said that to begin with
Actually, I thought I had addressed this. I agreed with you that the unlimited mining and super cap building caused a problem in the game. I have also stated that I don’t think the industry changes did enough to correct that and that they could have done more to drive conflict and trade between the different sectors.
I think we are arguing two different points. I want to see the big ships in space getting blown up. You are arguing for a market balance and play style balance. I don’t see why we can’t have both.
I never claimed I was good at the game. You try to make more that 150 mill an hour with 4 kids, a wife, one of which is a newborn. 
Ahh yes asking questions that cannot be answered with hard numbers due to player variables and then getting the answer you don’t like of 50 mil more an hour for putting that large of an asset on grid is totally unreasonable. Simply put, if there is zero people in space trying to kill me at that minute the risk is 0%, if there is a Kiki fleet bearing down on me there is about a 100% chance of me dying unless somebody comes to save me.
Given that you have actually given some well-reasoned arguments and well thought out ones, I cannot believe that you are incapable of understanding any of my responses so yes at this point you are a troll.
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Thats the weakest dodge yet.
When you beg for something, its a good idea to know what you are asking for.
Please try to use reason BEFORE the ad hominem. Otherwise you undermine your own position.
More than what? This is your apparent answer.
You make statements like these and call ME the troll? Do me a favour and pull the other one, its got bells on.
So yes you think you should undock a 52b ship and do a task that apparently pays x+50m an hour (where x equals who knows, not you apparently) and there is zero risk if theres no non-blues in system.
Why the heck would anyone outside Null support that situation?
That happened before all of this and still happens now. So we’re good then.
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