You know, there are people out there still hand-writing weekly letters to Coca-Cola because they can’t get over that one time they changed a recipe for like a year.
Many people are absolutely bat-■■■■; it’s not something to which a “normie” can relate.
Uh. That’s how you get clapped LOL.
But a noob huh? LOL.
Take the code for concord. Take away the bit where you can’t warp off and replace it with a scram.
Instead of this spawning on a criminal act make it rng.
Move it around like incursions.
And you know as well as me that plenty players would get caught.
I mean it’s sh*t but that’s not the point. The point is you can’t base an assertion that a group of players have no worth on “you could be replaced by NPC’s”. When A: any activity can be replaced by NPC behaviour and B: CCP have just buffed said activity with recent changes and are further buffing it by adding compression in the coming weeks. If we were on the block for being replaced by NPC’s why would do much dev time be focussed on said activity. It’s a ridiculous position. As ridiculous as the the absurd (but possible) NPC gank fleet.
Plenty of players get caught by 0.9 sec status system belt rats too. Outlier situations don’t affect the status quo, however. Just because mission-runners will occasionally die to Worlds Collide doesn’t mean that the content isn’t entirely explored, documented, and predictable.
Outsourcing the PvP to NPCs would only result in destruction of players during the initial phase of deployment while the content is still being learned, and will then have a minor trickle effect from new and/or incompetent players. That is not the same thing as having a dynamic PvP system in the game.
Because the days of balanced gameplay are long behind us, and now EVE is 60% semi-AFK high-sec miners desperately trying to treat the game like a “stressball.” The company might not want to cater to these people because it compromises their vision for the product, but are essentially forced to do so as a matter of survival.
Just as replacing all miners with NPC’s isn’t part of a dynamic pvp system either.
You can say what you want about us as a group but we are ships in space. We sit on belts…… everyone of us a target. We move our ore to market and again we are a potential target.
Yet you are advocating for NPC fleets and ore just magically appearing as NPC sell orders.
Seems a little inconsistent
As terrible as it sounds, you’re a replaceable component without which the game can still function without having its fundamental nature affected. Without miners, there would just be fewer “filler” things to shoot.
Pirates however aren’t a replaceable component without which the game can still function without having its fundamental nature affected. Take away pirates, and the entire game fundamentally changes because it’s based on the transactional system of non-consensual PvP. No matter how many killer rats or how many arenas you add to the game to compensate, the baseline will be forever changed because piracy deals with the hoarding issue like no other game mechanic can.
See that’s just your personal bias. The reality is both are completely replaceable. The issue is the quality of the replacement. In both cases it’s awful.
Now I’ll concede that miners are easier to replace as the gameplay is of a more predictable nature. But that doesn’t mean they should be replaced or that it would be good to replace them. The result would be as I said before, less targets in space, less ore being moved around, NPC’ setting ore prices and therefore providing a minimum price for essentially every item that can be manufactured in the game. Reduced market pvp. Unlimited supplies presumably since NPC sell orders don’t tend to run out.
Now you know I fully support ganking and have no issues with it. I think NPC gank fleets is an awful idea. I’m not advocating for it. I’m just stating it’s possible regardless of how bad it would be. Because……… as you read above I’m being told……………
Miners are worthless because they can be replaced by NPC’s. A positioned being put forward simply as a “miner get back in your box” and completely ignoring the negatives of the change and how it would also go against the dynamic pvp agenda.
Applying that logic ANY activity can by replaced by NPC’s. And in every single case the game would be worse off for it. Including mining.
So maybe we should quit arguing about ridiculous hypotheticals that are not going to be implemented? No?
Kind of getting into the meaning of what it means to “replace” things now.
Replacements have to be viable. It’s the difference between your dog dying and you replacing it with another actual dog, or a plush dog from a toy store. Both are technically replacements, but the former, while never truly taking the place of the pet you lost, at least maintains the same cardinality of function.
You’re defaulting to “NPC orders,” but I already mentioned that in ages past, most of our minerals came from combat drops. There were no NPC orders (except during the first year or two of the game), and still plenty of hauling and market PvP.
Once again, no, not every activity can be replaced by NPCs. I already explained why in multiple posts. Generally speaking, activities against the environment can be replaced with NPCs, but activities against other players can’t, as they’re conducted as a direct effect of the entropy produced by human thought.
For example, can you get scammed by an NPC instead of a player? Think about what that would entail.
I remember the game being distinctly more enjoyable when there weren’t crying miners everywhere, and CCP wasn’t desperately trying to do damage control on their game’s original artistic vision just to hold on to them so that they wouldn’t leave and take their subscription money with them.
Coincidentally, that was when the game’s population actually grew.
The bias might not be nearly as prevalent as you assume.
Do you PvP? Do you gank? Do you conduct mercenary contracts? Do you run extortion rackets? Do you camp gates?
Because I’ve mined.
Do they? I mean I certainly hope they would be but I wouldn’t suggest it’s a given. And what’s viable in any given situation is fairly subjective. Ask 5 people and you will get 5 different answers. We all have different standards.
And things have moved past that. Regardless of whether one way or the other is better……… “progress” tends to be a one way street. It’s very difficult to reverse things once things are implemented and people settle into a status quo.
Setting aside the reactions of miners if CCP suddenly announced that mining wasn’t a thing anymore. Let’s even set aside the pros and cons as I accept a case can be made that “carebear miners” like me are bad for the game. But let’s just think about the general player base reactions which I’m sure would be along the lines of……… you spend how long creating a waste and compression mechanic for ships and now you are just getting rid of it all.
Essentially CCP can’t walk this back even if they wanted to.
I remember being distinctly happier in the 80’s. Not a care in the world. Listening to prince on a cassette in my Walkman.
And while I still enjoy sone prince from time to time, reverting back to my Walkman as much as I loved it at the time is not going to bring back the child like wonder.
Now I wasn’t around back then. But you can pretty much go to any community for any game, or any thing for that matter, and encounter the “things were better back then” group. It’s so prevalent in every aspect of life that it’s hard to give it the weight that I’m sure it deserves in this case.
Things evolve. Sometimes the change is good. Sometimes the change is bad. But the change is always inevitable. Nothing stays the same.
A longing for the glory days isn’t productive.
Well in the spirit of consistency I have to say that every one of us PVP’s. Everything we do is part of a PVP. But in the context you are using it here. No. I don’t.
I am well aware my experience in the game is lacking in area compared to present company. But that doesn’t mean I can’t disagree, it doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion and express it. And it certainly doesn’t mean that from time to time I can’t be right. At least as often as a broken clock I find.
If someone says I’m worthless and my play style is replaceable……. Would you really just expect me to agree?
My opinion is that PvE is supposed to serve as bait to get players out and about to be content for each other. If a miner mines and does not cry foul when they become content, then I don’t think many people would care a whole lot if a miner mines.
I think the root of the problem was the development of some sort of mental separation between PvE and PvP players where some feel like they have a right to be excluded from PvP whenever they don’t feel like they should be, or that PvP against people doing PvE should be more highly regulated or punished. CCP does give in to this way of thinking from time to time and it only furthers the divide.
I spent my entire Eve career doing nothing much but mining and getting beat up on, but after sucking it up and taking my lumps some of them would become fond of me and turn from enemy to ally. They don’t hate miners, or at least a lot of them don’t. What they hate are people who feel entitled to be excluded from being content because they’re doing PvE when PvE only exists for the sake of giving people a reason to go out and be content.
Maybe I’m being a bit naive but I see the crying as very much a loud minority.
I don’t think it’s as bad out there as it’s made out to be. Sure there will be a proportion of miners that fit that mould. Coz guess what? Not all of us are the same.
I do find it irritating that we are all tarred with the same brush. Many of us a pretty reasonable in our views
Its really very simple:
2 guns bad; 4 strip miners and augmented drones good
All I’m saying is that people who claim to be anti mining are probably using that as a means to an end, the end being to keep people from trying to exclude themselves as content for other people in the sandbox. If you know what really rustles their jimmies you can argue more effectively. It’s not about mining and never was, even though it has become the poster child of an agenda to alter the game’s fundamentals. It’s about people trying to shift the game’s paradigm away from what it was originally little by little and seeing them slowly gain ground. (Or at least that’s how it seems to me from the history I’ve read or observed.)
People who mine have gained a reputation, whether or not they’ve individually earned it. Not much you can do about it but be a counterexample so people have an opportunity to learn not all PvE players fit the stereotype.
Once again, you will not be able to replace PvP with NPC-driven destruction. You can substitute the net effect, to an extent, but it’s scientifically impossible to perform a replacement in this case. AI opponents, at our current technical limits, do not have the ability to adapt like humans do.
You can likewise argue that we can replace human PvP with ships simply occasionally exploding by themselves without any internal or external input. The net effect on the economy might be the same as current human PvP, but the game would fundamentally change at its very core.
Meanwhile, mining can be eliminated, and the game would function in much the same manner as long as there are other player-driven mechanisms for acquiring minerals in place.
You’re not bad for the game because you understand the implications of player interaction (or lack of), and thus do not selfishly argue for artificial protection from said player interaction like those people.
True carebears (not simply industrialists like you) don’t understand these things, and prioritize the elimination of inconvenient non-consensual PvP above everything else.
I can name a whole bunch of long-running games that have gotten progressively better with time.
EVE got objectively progressively worse. The many quality-of-life improvements the game has received are welcome, but they aren’t as important as the game’s soul, which was sucked out and sacrificed to Kali about a decade ago.
Why do people default to this so often?
At what point did I say people aren’t allowed to have opinions? The act of disagreeing isn’t in itself a disagreement with someone’s right to disagree. It’s like some kind of weird straw man formulated on a subconscious level.
Personally, when someone does this, I view it as them running out of arguments.
None of this is personal because I know you’re a rational player/poster, but an argument is an argument, and I won’t pull any punches.
I think you are over simplifying this to a drastic extent. But never mind.
You may be right. But given I have less than 2 years in game I really can’t comment on how it was then. I can only comment on the game I play day to day. Which I enjoy. Whether I would have had more or less fun back then …… who knows.
But again we are dealing with very subjective criteria here. And the forum tends to be very polarised with people at ends of the spectrum. Which is why we see so much “we need to mine in peace” and “you don’t realise how easy you have it. Everything exploded more back in the day.
I’d suspect like in most other things there a majority of players that don’t much care either way and play ever onwards on the basis of “I just like spaceships”. Apathy. Which really isn’t a trait we see on forums.
Given the “it was better in days of old” isn’t something I can counter without making sh*t up I’ll just have to accept I’ve missed out on the best this mmo had to offer.
I can’t speak for others but in this case for me it was a direct response to the implication I shouldn’t have an opinion. Generally speaking when someone says something like this …….
…… it’s intention is to call into question the validity of an opinion based on the person saying it knowing in advance the answer is no…… and by extension saying lack of first hand experience is in itself a refuting the persons views by questioning why they should have them in the first place
Therefore I felt the need default to that position 
Thank you for your service.
Now go back into the mines and make me some money, miner.
That was my response to you saying that I’m biased, not telling you that you can’t have an opinion.
Wires crossed. Apologies
Lol…one minute you’re demanding that your personal experience is yours…the next you’re saying that the act of saying your personal experience is just yours is ‘making it personal’. Which is it ?
“Off with her head!” the Queen shouted at the top of her voice. Nobody moved.
“Who cares for you?” said Alice, (she had grown to her full size by this time.) “You’re nothing but a pack of cards!”