[ARC] Large and Heavily Damaged Drifter Fleet Encountered in Hive Complex

[Arrendis]

@Shibbla_Cendri

A whole lot of fedo farts that doesn’t address a damned thing except explaining what the rest of us already knew about how Drifters normally fight.

Did. They. Fire. ONLY. The Superweapon? If so, this is a marked departure from previous encounters, where the normal progression is ‘normal’ weapons until the overshield drops, and then the superweapon once, individually. As such, it should be specified and not talked around.

And no, something is not both a threat and a nuisance. Just because you don’t know something’s intent, that doesn’t make it a threat. I don’t know the intentions of most miners in highsec. They’re not a threat to me. They pose me no danger. If they intend me harm, they’re still NOT A FREAKING THREAT, because they don’t have the capability to do me significant harm.

If something is merely a ‘nuisance’, then it is not a threat. If it is a credible threat, then it is not a freakin’ nuisance to be brushed off and ignored whenever you don’t feel like dealing with them.

That’s not ‘word mincing’, that’s communicating clearly and effectively, you stupid twit. Something you’re evidently incapable of doing.

@Teinyhr

Unless I’ve been grossly misinformed, Lux Kontos is the CONCORD issued name of their primary weapon system, that of the “levitating” turrets around the vessel.

I don’t know. I’ve heard both weapon systems referred to that way by people I expect to know (both within SERAPH and ARC). So I asked for clarification. And got more freakin’ vaguaries when ‘Yes’ or ‘No, they weren’t firing the superweapon’ would’ve worked just fine.

But I suppose actually answering the damnable question is ‘word mincing’ and ‘rhetorical exercise’ because I’m ‘not about truth’.

[Makoto_Priano]

Teinyhr; our usual Hive doctrine is sufficient for fighting up to four or five Drifters at a time without loss. Incursion doctrines, which are unsuitable for deployment to wormholes, can successfully engage up to eighteen at a time, and may scale further. However, as we haven’t deployed that since the Throne Worlds campaign and Drifter target prioritization has changed, we’d need to update the doctrine somewhat markedly. Theoretically, incursion-fighting doctrines may be infinitely scaleable, but would require a core group of pilots to be very well equipped indeed. There are, as you’ve observed, other methods that may be employed.

Insofar as concern, well, yes, any time the Drifters do something unusual, we take note of it, and put out the information.

Arrendis; Lux Kontos is the name of the standard weapons fire. There is no widely agreed-upon name for the superweapon. Also, considering you yourself have stated outright that you engage in argument for the sake of sport, you may have to forgive others for not really giving your words much weight.

In any case, pilots, please, carry on.

[Shibbla_Cendri]

@Arrendis

A whole lot of fedo farts that doesn’t address a damned thing except explaining what the rest of us already knew about how Drifters normally fight.

@Shibbla_Cendri

This is the first and only time I’ll humor your word mincing.

I stand by own statements. Interpret them as you will.

I don’t have to dignify you with a response or engage you in discourse.

[Teinyhr]

@Shibbla_Cendri

I don’t have to dignify you with a response or engage you in discourse.

…But you will, because if there is something capsuleers love more than ISK, it is petty squabbling.

[Corraidhin_Farsaidh]

@Teinyhr

…But you will, because if there is something capsuleers love more than ISK, it is petty squabbling.

Actually in my case it’s chocolate, but each to their own.

[Teinyhr]

@Corraidhin_Farsaidh

Actually in my case it’s chocolate, but each to their own.

Just an observation, nothing more.

And I love a lot of things more than ISK, too.

[Arrendis]

I’d put money down that she won’t.

Now she gets to either engage, or prove me right.

[Yarosara_Ruil]

I do love chocolate, but to me, Science is the bee’s knees!

[Corraidhin_Farsaidh]

Then study the science of chocolate.

[Yarosara_Ruil]

YES! BRILLIANT!

The sweetness of chocolate with the awesomeness of science! Combined! And then… I’ll weaponize diabetes! Mhahahaha!

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Teinyhr

I don’t really share this concern in the same way, as they seem more than capable of wiping all of us out if they so want to already. While I’m not privy to ARC’s tactics catalogue, what they have publicly released implies they can only deal with a handful drifter battleships at a time, and Drifters in such numbers as they have recently appeared are beyond ARC’s - or even combined navy forces - ability to counter if they are not already severely damaged beforehand.

So-- first, what Ms. Kalaratiri said. The ARC/SERAPH zero-loss Hive doctrine only works against at most a few targets at a time, because concentrated fire from too many Drifters would overwhelm our logistics capacity. There are other doctrines, like the one ARC actually fielded. Losses tend to be pretty heavy, but, it gets the job done.

Second, there’s this idea a lot of people who oppose ARC’s work seem to have, that the Drifters are an outside-context problem we have no hope of confronting successfully. I don’t think it’s obviously true, but it’s scarily plausible: maybe the Drifters are to us what an ax is to a melon, and our only hope really is to placate them, so they’ll spare us.

It’s not clear we have any hope of placating them, though, and it’s also not clear that things are really so hopeless. We can’t penetrate their structures or anything, so, that’s dispiriting, but we can take on even apparently high-end Drifter ships like the Hikanta without losses.

We can kill them. It’s not even really that hard. They can kill us, too. If it comes down to a war of attrition … who wins?

I don’t know. But, also don’t think we can afford to assume that we’d just get crushed. There’s a lot of strangeness, here, but if we just wait for the Drifters to finish what they’re doing and go about their business we won’t be in a position to complain if what they’re doing is finishing us.

If we assume we’ll lose, we place ourselves at their mercy, and literally the first and only time they’ve communicated directly was to lie to us (pretending to be Hilen Tukoss to get Jove DNA samples). That’s not a great omen for their intentions.

Although, that they felt the need to lie might be a good sign of other things. Trickery’s not usually a favorite tool of the strong.

Edit:

Less-encouraging, follow-up thought: they haven’t felt the need to lie (or talk) since. . . .

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

Trickery’s not usually a favorite tool of the strong.

Edit:

Less-encouraging, follow-up thought: they haven’t felt the need to lie (or talk) since. . . .

Trickery’s often a favorite tool of the strong. You’re just less likely to find out they used it. In this case, though, it’s more along the lines of 'trickery is a favorite tool of those who don’t know if they’re strong. Why risk exposure until you’ve had the chance to gauge your opposition?

As for whether or not they’ve felt the need to lie (or talk) since… for all we know, they do. Maybe they’ve just gotten better at the trickery.

[Teinyhr]

@Aria_Jenneth

Second, there’s this idea a lot of people who oppose ARC’s work seem to have, that the Drifters are an outside-context problem we have no hope of confronting successfully. I don’t think it’s obviously true, but it’s scarily plausible: maybe the Drifters are to us what an ax is to a melon, and our only hope really is to placate them, so they’ll spare us.

When I said that, I meant it in a way that the Drifters could have the potential to be a truly terrifying entity, able to appear at a moments notice almost anywhere, in great and overwhelming force, before any sort of defence fleets could even be organized. Like the Sansha, but so, so, much worse.
And in my opinion it bears asking; Why aren’t they as terrifying as they could be? Nothing could stop them from eradicating all the world leaders with similar strikes as they used to assasinate Empress Jamyl - like previously mentioned, most of them were particularly vulnerable during the coronation of Empress Catiz.

If the Drifters are the #1 threat to humanity… Why aren’t they acting the part? It has been pointed out many, many times and as many times summarily ignored, that so far we are far more dangerous to ourselves than they are. Drifter attacks, despite their brute strength pale in comparison to pretty much anything; looking broadly at public records of capsuleer warfare, the CEMWPA conflict results daily in over half of the materiel cost than Drifters have inflicted over 3 years. Capsuleer vessels lost to various empire navies and pirate organizations is roughly 118 times as much as has been lost to the Drifters in the span of past 90 days. And that is wholly leaving out the sheer scale of destruction wrought by the capsuleers between themselves.

Looking at those numbers, I know what I’m more afraid of, because so far I can be pretty sure when I will be shot at by a Drifter and when not, but I cannot reliably say the same for another capsuleer - I kid you not I’ve lost vessels to other capsuleers because they’ve wanted to cross the ship hull off their bucket lists.

Now, again, I’m not saying the Drifters are harmless by any means or that they should not be studied - but I worry about the widely held opinion that they deserve to be destroyed just because they exist. And doubly so, because the entities who focus on their study seem to be more run on emotion than logic.

[Jandice_Ymladris]

To repeat. nobody is chasing after the needless destruction of the Drifters, not even ARC. How so? The Drifters patrols are still scanning plenty of systems in known space, unopposed & unchallenged. Nobody is hunting them relentlessly.
However when they form fleets, it changes.

First time they began forming fleets in our space? This happened:

Eventually leading to large scale destruction of military & civilian infrastructure in Amarr space, until the Drifters withdraw from the conflict.

The second time they formed fleets, they launched an attack against all 4 nations. but this attack was different as it didn’t target the nations as a whole, but only the Alpha capsuleer graduation systems:
BREAKING: Drifter attacks on research facilities across New Eden
As the attack was mainly on graduation systems, where the Alpha clones came from, this pinpoint attack on the 4 nation space seem to have gone under the radar by many capsuleers who graduated before this incident.
So if you don’t want to antagonize the Drifters, it is a bit late, as they seem to have a dislike to alpha clone technology.

With that information available, is it then such a surprise to adopt a shoot first, ask questions later philosophy when they form fleets?
Or should be take the risk & let them form fleets & only act after they levelled a system? Because that’s been their fleet behaviour prior to these new sightings.

To keep in mind, so far 4 fleets have been sighted:

• The Anoikis Drifter fleet: Attacked ARC, ARC withdrew. Drifter fleet was not engaged. The Drifter fleet was within their right to attack
• The Drifter fleet in nullsec: Got wiped out. That’s what happens to anyone not authorized to be there by local nullsec capsuleer alliances: they blow you up.
• The Rens & Sirppala Drifter fleets: Both formed at important locations, ARC & supporters disposed of them before they could become a (possible) threat

Considering previous times that drifters formed fleets, it ended with the destruction of infrastructure, that was hardly a far fetched response.
It is easy to criticize afterwards that the destruction of the fleets was not needed, but at the same time, if they had continued their normal fleet forming behaviour, as shown during the Amarr crisis & then the Alpha clone strike, Rens & Sirppala would have suffered considerable damage to their infrastructure & loss of life. Would this have been acceptable?

However, it’s been established that this time, their fleet forming behaviour seems different & not immediately directed at attacking us. Namely, they don’t outright attack you, unless provoked by either by attacking them (duh), carrying corpses or (likely, but not yet tested on these new fleet sightings) carrying an Entosis link.
They also seem to give up when suffering heavy losses, so whatever these fleets are doing in our space, fighting doesn’t seem to be their primary goal for once
With that new info in mind, behaviour they did not show in previous encounters, new tactics & strategies can be devices on how to handle these new sightings.

So perhaps we could focus on what we could do or attempt to do when the next similar fleet shows up in known space.

[Arrendis]

@Jandice_Ymladris

So perhaps we could focus on what we could do or attempt to do when the next similar fleet shows up in known space.

Perhaps multiple people have already made that suggestion. But don’t worry, we’re sure the next time a fleet shows up someplace where it ‘could’ present a ‘possible’ threat (or just happens to get noticed someplace ARC is willing to go), I’m sure ARC’ll show up and blow them away again, no matter what suggestions happen here.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

I would say your chosen precedents don’t really support the hypothesis that these were ‘forming fleets’. You don’t form a fleet on a gate, for hours, showing your presence, scanning ships, etc. That’d be the most cockeyed ‘invasion’ attempt of all time. More to the point, if a few Coercers can kill said ‘form-up’, I can assure you the Navies would blow it out of the water just as easily if they thought it was that kind of threat.

It’s pretty evident that yes, someone are chasing needless fights and skipping straight to the last resort long before it proves necessary. I suppose the alternatives aren’t as flashy on broadcasts.

As for what could be done, Arrendis already said it. There’s a whole lot of viable options delivered in this thread already, but they’ll go unheeded I bet.

[Arrendis]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

I can assure you the Navies would blow it out of the water just as easily if they thought it was that kind of threat.

Turn people away from the gate for an hour or two ahead of time, post a ‘travel at your own risk’ advisory, and then drop half a dozen titans around the formation and BFG them simultaneously. See if any of them have the time to shoot back. It’s not like a fleet of 50 of them pose a threat to a modern titan, even if they all fire their superweapons at the same one.

Yeah. This isn’t rocket surgery for the Navies.

[Makoto_Priano]

The many authorities on other viable options are entreated to demonstrate the effectiveness of those other viable options.

[Arrendis]

Give us a baseline to measure against. Your goals are scientific, right? We just got assured nobody’s looking to just blow up Drifters, didn’t we?

So tell us: What science has been achieved by blowing up these fleets? Give us all of your new findings and data, so we can have a baseline against which to measure any demonstration.

[Makoto_Priano]

By demonstrate the effectiveness of other viable options, Arrendis, I mean to say: do something other than blow hot air.

Best of luck.