I’ve explained this a few times already this week, but since you don’t seem sure about what’s going on, and I don’t like uncertainty raising questions that may already have answers…
The sentence fragment you’re taking that from is “Iters. [2.0.0],[2.7.2.0]”, in reference to a “Jovian Expansionist Polity” which we’ve extrapolated to mean “Iterations 2.0.0 through 2.7.2 of the Jove Civilization” (So, the Second Empire), which is all in reference to “archived Spatio-Temporal Co-ordinate ranges”, so what’s being listed is the Triglavians’ mapping data on the region of space that was occupied by the Second Empire between those iterations, for comparison to new scans taken in the present.
As for the Drifters, whatever the hell is going on with them and whoever the hell they actually are now, their ties to the Tyrants’ legacy are apparently strong enough to have reignited their conflict with the Triglavians. What’s more important, however, is that this now raises a lot of questions about that conflict. Who were the Triglavians at the time? Were they a faction of common Jove, or an entirely separate culture? How deeply has life in the Abyss changed them from then to now? Why did the conflict begin, and how did it end? We can assume the Triglavians lost, since they were the ones who retreated into the Abyss… but what did they lose? What was at stake in the “War in Heaven”?
And, of course, since the Triglavians left late in the Empire’s history, it has no relation to the subject matter but I’m obligated to ask one last question… did the Triglavian/Tyrant conflict have anything to do with the rise of the Jove Disease, which would go on to topple the Second Empire?
Given the apparent Triglavian proficiency in biotechnology, I cannot help but wonder if the Triglavians may very well have caused the Jovian disease in the first place.
That isn’t how iteration works. " In computer programming, an iterator is an object that enables a programmer to traverse a container, particularly lists. Various types of iterators are often provided via a container’s interface." What we are seeing is a database management system in operation. Nothing to do with mapping, except in as far as its mapping within a data construct. The Jovian disease is not the reason the Second empire collapsed, it came afterwards. "The exact origin and history of the Jovian Disease is mysterious, with the Jove only offering bits of information about it. While it is possible that the disease existed, at least in some form, during earlier parts of Jove history, its current fatal variant - effectively, what is being referred to with the “Jovian Disease” moniker - first arose as the Jove exited a time known as the “Shrouded Days”, when they manipulated their own genetic structure to extreme degrees. These manipulations eventually came to an end, but the damage had already been done. Some fatal element had been introduced into the Jove genetic structure. "
Now, that point about “Iterator” as a programming term is interesting. I’d previously been operating on the common definition of “Iteration”, as one occurence/state of a thing that has several occurences/states over time.
I don’t think this discounts our current theories, however- We’re seeing the Triglavians access archived data of “Spatio-temporal co-ordinates”, so assuming the database entries are listed in chronological order (2.0 preceding 2.1, etc.), the outcome remains the same. Whether “Iters.” refers to the chronological occurence of the “Spatio-temporal co-ordinates” within that [2.0.0],[2.7.2.0] range, or just to their designation in the database’s filing system, they’re still accessing space-time co-ordinates within a range, and that, by definition, is mapping data.
You’re right about the Shrouded Days, though- that was an error/misinterpretation of information on my part. At least we can confirm the Triglavians had nothing to do with the Jove Disease…?
It doesn’t bear any relation to any system of space time mapping we use, or have seen. Semiotic analysis works on defining a culture by social psychology really. Significators, which are what Discourse elements are. So each element is perhaps an item in the list structure. I’m working towards it being some kind of abstract data type, like a list array. One of the interesting points is that they discuss the Jovians not having achieved the expected distribution according to the Triglavian model of their expansion. That could well have spatio-temporal co-ordinates associated with it. We don’t have enough info at present.
Somebody might have interfered with the Jovian genome database. Possibly by hacking some kind of CRISPR gene editing system. If Third Empire Jove did not know as much about it as previous Empires had. There are Talocan sites which might indicate some kind of experimentation going on. It’s not totally clear if the Talocan are also some Jovian offshoot.
They are not. The Jovians themselves were aware of very clear distinctions even between the Talocan and the First Jovian Empire (which was still recognizably Jovian based on what the First Empire had left behind, as far removed as it was from the Third Empire).
Hmmm… interesting how analyzing these Semiosis Intercepts from a programming-language standpoint can lead to notably different conclusions than analysis based on spoken language. This leads us to some of the same conclusions, though- speaking in broad strokes, the Jove aren’t where the Triglavians expected them to be. Let’s leave the Talocans and Jove Disease, etc., out of things for now, though. Nothing in particular ties them to this, that I’m aware of.
An interesting note on “Semiosis”… there are two ways to interpret that term in this context. You’re assuming that the Triglavians are literally using these Semiosis Consoles to send Semiotic data back and forth… but perhaps they aren’t, or not in the way you think.
“Semiotic” data, as you define it… data about the “Social psychology”… isn’t that what we’re getting from these consoles? Information that helps us better understand the Triglavians’ social psychology, by helping piece together their relations to (and opinions on) New Eden’s other cultures, and their place in its history?
In plain words: Is it possible that the Semiosis Conduction Consoles are intentional plants by the Triglavians, intended to feed us Semiotic Data about their culture, in such a way as to make it a challenge to access, decode, and interpret that data, so as to make it part of their process of “proving” us Capsuleers?
While I have been trying to become better prepared for the abyss, I spent time investigating an outbreak of rogue drones. I then became distracted by efforts to ingratiate myself with CreoDron in order to gain a deeper appreciation for when drones might warrant political representation.
However, the above quoted material reminds me that remarkable pieces of information did come out of the investigation. I agree with Mlle. Aldanar that the Talocan are not Jovian. My investigation led many places, one of which was the office of an Amarrian archeologist in Lisudeh by the name of Canius.
Doctor Canius informed me that Individual One in our investigation was a spy for the Society of Conscious Thought. Remarkable. This spy infiltrated the household of an Amarrian Holder. Remarkable. Through that household, he secured access to Imperial archives. With that access, the spy was able to transfer and I quote exactly “all records pertaining to the Empire’s knowledge of ‘pre-Jovian’ weapons” to the Society. Quite remarkable.
If Amarr holds records specifically on pre-Jovian weapons, that does require that there existed a period of time in which there were no Jovians. The Talocan and Yan Jung civilizations are natural candidates to fill that gap.
It also seems individuals within Amarr know much more about what is going on than has been communicated. The Society of Conscious Thought was founded by members of the most recent Jovian empire, is that not the case? Yet Amarr appears to possess information the Society does not. The existence of this knowledge may help explain some animosity Tyrant forces showed toward Amarr.
Finally, rogue drones appear to descend from precursor precursor weapons. Their true importance may have been obscured by ubiquitous appearance. If I were to pick a precursor precursor civilization to associate them with, and I might as well, it would be Yan Jung. What we call rogue drones appear to have originated, possibly by accident, within Gallente space. Gallente space is closely while not exclusively associated with the Yan Jung. The initial settlement of that civilization occurred four light years from my own home.
The Triglavian effort to communicate with rogue drones therefore seems well founded.
A fascinating story, though not entirely pertinent to this discussion… for my own two cents, the Rogue Drones can have political representation as soon as they’re willing/able to request it.
The Triglavians are postulated to be one faction of the Jovian Second Empire. They have been established as holding an interest in rogue drones. Rogue drones are linked to a pre-Jovian civilization. They are also widely distributed throughout our Cluster. Amarr knows this and has not shared. It seems at least somewhat pertinent to an inquiry into the identity, nature, and objectives of precursor civilizations.
Or are you saying that Doctor Canius is lying, the emergence of rogue drones was by industrial accident, and the interest in them shown by Triglavians is only passing curiosity?
Ahhhh, now I see the connection you’re making. So, the Rogue Drones have roots that run back further than the Jove, and the Triglavians (Probably a Second-Empire subculture) have interest and mixed opinions on the Rogue Drones, both controlling and fighting them by various means. The connection being that this means A Second-Empire Subculture may have actively been working with the Rogue Drones, even back then.
In addition, I would like to emphasize that this weapon system has been fully deployed throughout our Cluster. It is true that the threat has been managed to this point. However, I do not believe that we have seen what rogue drones are truly capable of.
The same can likely be said for many of the threats we face… but we persist. We survive, adapt, and build, from single ships to the Great Empires and the corporate pseudo-nations out in Nullsec, even as our many adversaries may be doing the same.
We’re surviving the Sansha. We’re surviving the Drifters. Hell, we’re surviving each other, more or less. If the Rogue Drones become a more serious threat, perhaps due to Triglavian involvement, we’ll survive them too… though I’d like to hope they’ll eventually be ready to negotiate with the Federation, if not the other Empires.
My note on the 2.7.2.0 reference, if it is based on a programming/data structure concept it could well represent a set of hierarchal lists. So this would be list 2, sublist 7, subsublist 2, subsubsublist 0.
Or it could just be a simple document header structure, chapter 2, paragraph 7 etc.
More to my earlier point: I believe that the Drifters are not Jovian entities as such. I believe they are AI evolved from the support and protection systems that guarded the Sleeper structures.
My reasoning for this is based on observation rather than physical research. Their fleets behave more like shoals than individual entities, massed groups of drones following parallel input instructions.
The Drifter bodies are nothing more than input modules. Perhaps they are required because Drifters ships are keyed to pilots with Jovian DNA (Has any analysis of Drifter wreckage shown this at all?).
If I remember correctly from the post-mortem on the one Drifter we had, the brain structure was effectively rewired in every area other than the basal ganglia core functioning. Entire areas were replaced/reworked to perform entirely different functions. I doubt you could cram a ‘human’ mind into that structure and the body containing it do much more than drool.
Another thought that occured to me was something I remember from a while back. I can’t remember where from but I believe the Sleepers had a ‘one mind, one body’ philosophy? That would explain perhaps the antagonism between them and the Triglavian ‘Troika’ philosophy. It may also explain Triglavian hatred of Drifters if it’s not even a Jovian mind controlling the Drifter bio-interfaces.
Yes, we’re already working on different ideas about the [2.0.0],[2.7.2.0] reference numbers.
As for the Drifters, you make an interesting point, but remember, the Jove of the Second Empire were already clone-based infomorphs. It’s entirely possible the Drifters aren’t AI intruders into the Jovian cadavers they operate as bodies, but are themselves ancient Jovian consciousnesses, potentially dating back millenia to the Second Empire Tyrants, who have been changed so much by a purely infomorphic existence that they have to do some serious re-wiring to cram back into even a Jovian brain.
Here’s a thought: Wherever the Drifters make their homes, is it possible they’re building infrastructure that might allow them to operate their ships entirely by remote? No more suborning Sleeper drones, no more occupying Jove cadavers- ships that can be operated directly by infomorphs without the need for any sort of physical presence.
Possible, but that doesn’t sit right with me. They kept (or at least tried to) their bodies to return to/support the ‘One mind/one body’ principal. No matter how highly evolved an inphomorph becomes, I believe a human originated mind would want a body to return to. They would not want a cadaver that can’t even communicate.
Drifter bodies are pure function over form, nothing more than bio-interfaces to Drifter vessels (hence my wondering why even bother with the mobilized Jovian mummy).
Don’t get me wrong, if I could put a computer system into my ship to support my mind instead of a pod, I would. I wouldn’t want to 'live’as my ships though.
This is why I believe the Drifters are actually sentient Non-Biological (I believe NBI would be more suitable than AI) infomorphs, whether evolved or formed from an aggregate of Sleeper minds. I lean towards the former though due to the lack of concern over their use of ambulatory corpses.