Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible?

[Syzygium]

@stefnia_Freir

They could had smaller structures that would not be war eligible

Can’t do it that way unfortunately, because those structures couldn’t ever be removed again then against the owner’s will. And nothing that grants you benefts/services should be invulnerable.

Removing the nessessity for Cores and still have basic functionality on the other hand can work. Structures without cores aren’t a lucrative target for wardeccers since they can essentially be completely stripped and evacuated in case of a wardec, so the attacker can at best grind 2 times and loot nothing but a killmail. So as long as you don’t behave badly, step onto someones toes or excessively try to harvest resources in an area where other people live, nobody should bother wardeccing you. I had POSes running for years in HS which made my corp wardeccable, but nobody ever came because it simply wasn’t worth the effort if you can’t loot anything.

This would at least make it entirely unprofitable to mass-wardec structure owners for core-grinding as long as they don’t want to reap the benefits that cores would offer (which should be massive if you can hold the station).

[stefnia_Freir]

@Syzygium

So as long as you don’t behave badly, step onto someones toes or excessively try to harvest resources in an area where other people live, nobody should bother wardeccing you.

Nah, people will always find a reason, like bashing people at random.

[Dyver_Phycad]

Necroing this.

I had suggested something similar a long time ago. War dec fees should be reversed (back when they were still scaling and not a flat 100M fee). Declaring war against a small target (independent from the attackers size) should always be extremely expensive in terms of war fees. Declaring war against a huge group should always incur negligible war fees.
It should always be extremely cheap to harass big targets and very expensive to attack smaller groups.

[Hatch_Nasty]

The reason I think relative scaling would be a better idea is to discourage grossly asymetric engagements (which are, in my opinion, generally an indicator of wardec abuse).

I can see legitimate cases where a five-man corp might wardec a ten-man corp. For example, two corps competing for the same hisec belts. I wouldn’t want any system changes to make that conflict prohibitively expensive for either party.

Likewise, two thousand-man corps warring against one another is probably a legitimate conflict.

In contrast, a one-man corp declaring war on a thousand-man corp is just a single player looking to enrich themselves with hisec targets, and a five-hundred-man corp declaring against a five-man corp is probably just an attempt to harass or extort.

The other problem I see with setting a flat fee scale for wardecs is that it will be gamed. Wherever you draw the line for “big corp,” corps will re-organize to avoid crossing that boundary and becoming cheap to wardec. I.e., if the definition of a big corp is “more than 500 members,” then a two-thousand-man corp will break into an alliance of four or five smaller corps instead.

[Arthur_Aihaken]

Side note: a lot of those abyssal kills probably originated in high-sec (I’d wager at least 25%).

It looks like high-sec PvP kills account for roughly 10%, so I’m not sure why we’re debating this. Even at ~10% it’s still quite a bit higher than I’d have imagined.

December may not be the greatest month to use as a view port as the Winter Nexus event was on. November would be better; September would probably be ideal.

[Arthur_Aihaken]

One idea: No more gating or docking at NPC stations with a criminal flag, and no more docking at NPC stations with a negative security status. This applies to Empire space only.

Ganking groups now have to deploy structures to store their ships, ammunition and clones - making them eligible war targets.

[Gloria_Exercitus]

@stefnia_Freir

Don’t feed the troll, he is now using only personal attacks

Your repeated calling of anyone who disagrees a troll is itself trolling and is itself personal attack.

[Glenduil]

I like this idea!

[Gloria_Exercitus]

@Glenduil

And stop acting all big and bad about your killboard. You’ve basically got nothing bigger than a destroyer in almost a year. In that year’s time, you’ve only gotten one kill in low sec.

LOL…I run multiple chars. Here’s one with 211 kills and one loss…

@Glenduil

Why do you keep calling it “my ore”?

Er…because you mine it.

@Glenduil

And why do you insist on blaming me for war decs?

Because your ore ends up making the ships that are used for wardecs. You are part of the wardec system whether you deny it or not. You can’t just pretend you are in some separate reality. If nobody mined…there would be no ore to make any ships for PvP and there would thus be no wardecs. See…that’s how the ecosystem of the supply chain for war works.

@Glenduil

High Sec destruction is 10% of total destruction in this game

So what.

@Glenduil

The amount of ore I sell on the open market would amount to an estimated 0.0000000000% of all ore sold in this game each day.

If you run a company and it makes just one bullet that is involved in the millions of bullets in wars around the world…you are part of those wars.

[Max_Deveron]

@stefnia_Freir

astrahus

is a combat only strucuture, it should req a core

[Gloria_Exercitus]

@stefnia_Freir

people will always find a reason, like bashing people at random.

People doing PvP in a PvP game…shocking !

The idea that people need a ‘reason’ to shoot stuff in a dystopian space war simulator is probably one of the daftest things I have read on the forums.

[Glenduil]

When do i mine ore? When am i selling all of this ore on the open market? You just said that im dumping ore on the market so tell when im doing this.

I’ll wait.

Oh it’s only when im running a company. And only if we make a bullet. Well i dont run a company and none of us make bullets.

I don’t mind making stuff for pvp, but war dec is stupid and gankers that use it are laughable.

But hey, im enjoying this. Keep boasting about how I’m a global arms dealer!! Maybe I’ll add that to my list of titles!

[Gloria_Exercitus]

@Glenduil

When do i mine ore?

Lol…no, you never mine…

@Glenduil

I don’t mind making stuff for pvp, but war dec is stupid

War dec is PvP. Thankfully you don’t get to decide what is or isn’t stupid in the game.

[Arthur_Aihaken]

Hey folks, this has been an enjoyable discussion. Let’s try to keep it on-track, ok?

[Glenduil]

I never said I never mine I said the amount of ore I sell on the open market is nothing compared to the daily total

And I jettisoned all the ore I mined when I took that screenshot LOL!

Now keep telling everyone here that mining a single unit of ore means that I fully support the stupid war dec system gankers use in high sec because theyre too lazy to have a real fight!

This is exactly like the childish behavior you all exhibit anytime someone mentions bumping because you all aren’t skilled enough to use scrams!

[Gloria_Exercitus]

Seriously, dude, I can’t be bothered arguing with this level of cognitive dissonance.

[Glenduil]

Your entire argument has been “You mine so you support war decs”

That isn’t an argument.

[Gloria_Exercitus]

I’m out of this ridiculous ‘discussion’ before I lose the will to live. Sayonara.

[Arthur_Aihaken]

Maybe just take a break and rejoin in a bit. Some of us have welcomed your input. Even though I may not agree with everything, it’s always beneficial having an opposing view.

[Dirk_Kajhone]

I see a lot more great posts today! Thanks to everyone!

@Kezrai_Charzai

Here’s the design goals so far:

This design list looks pretty good, but gotta say it also looks a bit wishful-thinking to me. Still, if you cna do it, that’ll be great. I look forward to seeing it.

@Arthur_Aihaken

Even if you win - what do you win?

My understanding is that wars when fought in a certain way can be profitable, so you’re making ISK. You’re keeping your members busy, so you’re playing and doing things you enjoy with friends. You’re racking up some kills over time, and there’s always somebody who thinks ‘more kills = most bestest at the game’. In every game.

So I think there’s plenty to win? For the war corp anyway. For defenders there seems to be nothing except “we survived so now someone else gets to dec us”.

@Kezrai_Charzai

here was the destruction breakdown by security sector:

Wow, that’s some pretty cool info. Null and Low being 60-70% of the destruction, seems like they’re doing somethign right.

@Syzygium

finanical motivation to just wardec as much available targets as possible, because the drop of a single core from whatever station already covers the cost of the wardec multiple times over and every additional loot or kill is just a bonus on top of it.

It seems totally strange that CCP would publish statements that in 2018 that show the harm wardecs are doing to defender corps, and then a few years later also add a massive unavoidable expense to the defenders that also makes it more profitable for the very wardec corps to dec tons of corps.

But then, CCP really doesn’t seem to have a good grasp of Citadels at all. I know a dozen guys that dropped out of the game after the whole CCP “Hey, we’re releasing Citadels and to convince you guys to use them, we’ll do a dev blog to show they’re safe and players can have confidence storing their stuff in them”. A few years latger, Also CCP “Hey gosh look at all those citadels! Welp we need destruction now so yeah, Forsaken Fortress! Hah hah pretty funny huh guys?”.

@stefnia_Freir

Actually I think raitarus and astrahus should be those ones : don’t require core in HS, do not make eligible to war.

These are very interesting notions. Good post. But if they don’t make war eligibility, what does?

@Hatch_Nasty

The reason I think relative scaling would be a better idea is to discourage grossly asymetric engagements (which are, in my opinion, generally an indicator of wardec abuse).

I agree. A big disparity in size woiuld often mean someone is gaming the system somehow. So maybe a low fee when sizes are ‘close’ or within a certain range, and some sort of multiplier as the attacker/defender size disparity increaseds?

@Arthur_Aihaken

It looks like high-sec PvP kills account for roughly 10%, so I’m not sure why we’re debating this. Even at ~10% it’s still quite a bit higher than I’d have imagined.

Those percents are ISK amounts so wouldn’t a lot of that be from freighter and blingship ganks?

@Arthur_Aihaken

Hey folks, this has been an enjoyable discussion. Let’s try to keep it on-track, ok?

Absolutely! Yes there’s a lot of great points being made here, please keep them rolling and try to avoid the “You!” , “No you!” sniping.

At least half a dozen good ideas in the thread so far and Kezrai hasn’t even posted the COmmunist Manifesto yet! CCP should be paying us for this!