Artillery T2 vs Autocannon T2 and ability to get to desired combat ranges (fitting issue)

Then the problem is more pervasive than i even though, so I’m broadening my request to include all long range weapon systems should fit on ships built to use them without a crutch being necessary, just fit the weapons on the ship: it is an absurd game design that needs fixed.

So add a crutch of some sort to pair a battleship to its weapon system even with max fitting skills and absolutely nothing else on the ship, again a poor game mechanic that you have become so used to you no longer even see just how poor this game design decision is anymore.

Give and take that is interesting is something i have no problem with. I frequently use compact versions of stuff to get a fit to work BUT this is a required crutch JUST TO PUT WEAPONS ON AN EMPTY HULL, despite having perfect fitting skills.

“It’s almost like someone created a flawed game design element that is screaming to be fixed”.

And yet ive fitted plenty of cruise missile boats with both T2 weapons and MWDs or MJDs. This situation makes sense, it is a long range weapon, you need to get to long range to use them so you can fit both the T2 weapon system as well as the MJD or MWD you need to get to range.

This same ability is needed for turrets as well, even more so actually given that opponent ship can get under your guns; whereas, a missile boat doesn’t suffer this problem.

It’s torps with missiles. They are short range but they cost more fitting. It’s the upside down world of missiles.

Dredge, it’s clear you haven’t been around for long. This is how eve works. There are few ships that can fit full racks of the largest weapons without sacrifice, ‘max skills’ or not. Learn to maximise here, compromise there. If it wasn’t like that, 1200’s wouldn’t exist because no one would use them (seriously how often do you see them used now?) Considering you can fit pretty much whatever you want on a mach with a single reactor control, this isn’t happening. With more time with the game you’d probably understand.

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And yet I just fit a full rack of T2 torpedoes a MJD and have 465 CPU and 2449 PWG left over to fit other mods. The real situation is that short range weapons are perfectly designed to fit their role, you put T2 short weapons, fit a MJD to close the range and it works as it should. But long range T2 turrets are impossible to fit onto long range fitted battleships and still have enough fitting left over put a proper MJD or MWD prop mod that you need to gain range to use them properly. Short range is working in a sensible manner while long range is gimped like crazy.

I fought to have more target locks added to mining vessels, it is now in the game. I fought to have freighters get mod slots, also now in the game.

The difference between you and I is that I see problems and seek for them to be fixed; whereas, you accept poor game design, get used to and defend it since it fits your comfort zone and not because it makes any sense at all.

Essentially the problem isnt that, 'I haven’t played EVE long enough to understand how it currently works, it is that you have been around so long under broken game mechanics you accept them as holy writ despite the inherent inconsistencies with how the game is designed".

I currently have a rack of these on one of my machariels since i enjoy the faster cycle times but I want to be able to fit 1400 T2s on a mach as well without the annoying need for a crutch right out of the gate.

I cannot stress enough that short ranged turret boats check all their need boxes with fitting to spare, while long range weapons suffering a perplexing mismatch between its need to get to range while also fitting weapons impossible to fit without a crutch.

Both these types of combat should have equally viable fittings as this has exactly zero to do with the more reasonable and interesting trade-offs between the two like tracking speeds, range, alpha vs max dps, and other such differences.

Would you be okay with CCP going through and making all short range weapon systems such they are impossible to fit even their weapon systems based on the fact they do significantly more DPS then their long range counterparts. I’m pretty sure you wouldnt be okay with this but only because this is counter to the status quo and what you are used to and you have come to believe it should stay broken, just because it always has been.

needing a “crutch” as you call it to fit a weapon system that on most ships will give you greater than 10k alpha beyond 60km is perfectly okay

So if youre that desperate to not use fitting mods, and you are already using compact mods, then use t1 guns. Or, use faction guns, which use less fitting and do slighly less damage (and cant use t2 ammo).

Ive already told you, high dps and high alpha are 2 very different things. The fact i could one shot certain cruisers with 1400’s is an extremely powerful aspect of artillery, it is balanced around their fitting and RoF. Neutron blasters cannot 1 shot a cruiser, they would wittle them down or take out chunks in a quick manner, but not bypass active tanks in a single volley.

CCP has adjusted artillery fitting in the past, its better than it used to be. 1400s will always be fitting intensive, its purposeful design/balance. You arent going to get any sympathy from us or devs about it.

What you really should be advocating is having CCP finish weapon tiericide so that faction turrets can use t2 ammo. Then your problem is solved with some extra isk.

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or use the lower fitting cost guns like the 1200s

please >:D

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Well thanks for nerfing freighters and gee extra target locks on mining barges. How did we survive without them?

The rest of your post is just a different way of saying ‘you don’t like change!’ Same lies different moron.

The difference between you and me is that I’ll really try something before i suggest it NEEDS change or it’s ‘broken’. You on the otherhand don’t seem to have any fitting knowledge beyond the mach and minmatar ships. Didn’t care to compare your situation against other ships/weapons (cause ■■■■ balance right?) and just assumed because something didn’t go as expected it was ‘broken’. You just want your wtfpwn ship am i right?

Thing is, you could argue that the amarr should get another beam capable bs, and that minnie could get another artie capable bs. But i doubt the mach is going to get any help there. It’s too strong as it is. You’d also be taken more seriously if you weren’t being a brat.

No they don’t! Stop being this bad and fit other ships.

Ac’s have low fitting. Try a moa, a thorax, a brutix, a harbinger, a merlin, a raven etc

Ships often have to downsize weapons, even short weapons, use a fitting mod or give up some tank.

Autocannons are the exception. Infact, a hurricane, ruppie and rifter usually downsize autocannons.

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I fit a raven with full rack of T2 torps and a MWD and had fitting room to spare, so go fact check yourself.

You first.

Did you finish fitting the raven? Neut. Shield booster? Cap booster? Tick those boxes? Thought not. You probably shouldnt undock with torps, an mwd and nothing else. If you look around at the fits people actually use you’ll often find co-processors, cpu rigs, reactor controls, guides that tell you need fitting implants, or down sizing/meta modules etc

And I take it you tried the other ships but were too ashamed to say that you were wrong?

This doesn’t solve the problem it ignores it. Workarounds never solve a problem; in fact, they tend to make problems exist longer (sometimes permanently) because some workaround has been found and now everybody moves on instead of solving the problem.

I would actually advocate against T2 ammo being use on faction weapons because currently the fact that T2 ammo is exclusive to T2 weapons makes T2 weapons interesting options to faction weapons, afterwards T2 lose a lot of interest and become just another T2 footnote in the game.

You have now tripped beyond my request into fallacy dumping. Read what i said: “short ranged TURRET boats check all their need boxes with fitting to spare”.

Misquoting someone and attacking what YOU said and not what I said, nor intended is a fallacy.

I made it clear in my OP that what i wanted was that T2 Artillery to fit on battleships without the need for some crutch to get them to fit when you have perfect fitting skills (if at some point i have been drawn away from my original request by off-point topics I am making you aware that from now on my discussion will be focused only upon my request and why it is needed and not tangential statements made by anyone, myself included).

I am not only NOT ashamed of anything I have said but rather proud to be championing yet another unpopular idea that needs fixed in the game. As was true in the other battles I helped fight and win (freighters have mods and mining vessels have more target locks) it is once again the bittervet crowd that protest reasonable requests because they have become so accustomed to broken game mechanics.

I respect your opinion on the issue differs from mine but ultimately my opinion is both reasonable and easy to implement and if it was implemented this time period in EVEs history would be looked back upon with astonishment that a weapon system specifically built for a ship class didnt even fit on it, even for a pilot with perfect fitting skills.

Also, while i championed the extra locks on mining vessels as a quality of life change for miners, that by this time miners probably dont even realize that at one time mining vessels had fewer target locks but would probably be annoyed if they were removed.

The Freighter issue not having mods was just plain wrong and so is this issue and it is way past time it was fixed.

Honestly, If i was in charge of some governments development of combat ships, ordered a destroyer and some contractor built one and came back and said they were done but there was just one little thing i needed to know and that was that the weapons made for the ship dont actually fit on it, id be apoplectic. And that is how i feel about how poorly 1400mm Artillery are in their current state, that state being completely broken.

A problem has to exist for it to be fixed. The problem is in your OCD not allowing you to fit a fitting module to compensate for 1400s on a ship.

Its not a work around. Its fitting options, something you dont understand. Try putting t2 720s on a vaga. Notice how they dont fit? Now put the jolt 720s on it. Those actually do fit with a minor loss in dps and cant use t2 ammo (which isnt terrible). Every minmatar ship has trouble fitting the largest artillery gun in its class+tank.

Put 280s on a wolf, tell me about how much grid is left for a respectable tank without any fitting mods. CCP recently reduced small arty fitting by 2pg, so imagine the wolf fit you have up using 280s, but with 8 less PG. Even after the buff, its still a pain to fit. Mainly because thats the sacrifice with artillery.

Go ahead and try putting 6 t2 720s on a t1 cane, take a hard look at whats left. Did you see? Its identical to the mach, you cant even fit a compact mwd or mjd in whats left. Whys that i wonder? Maybe because when you fit the biggest artillery piece on your ship, it comes with a significant fitting disadvantage.

If you want to throw around your “forum rep” about freighters having some mods, thats fine, but your knowledge seems to be lacking in the pros and cons of putting certain weapons on ships. And if you really want to lay your e-peen on the table about making suggestions that CCP listened to, im the one who recommend giving battlecruisers range bonuses as a role bonus (and making the fleet cane into what it is today), which has shaped nullsec fleet meta in a very significant way.

So i, nor anyone else, cares that you suggested freighter and miner changes, those have no weight on discussion about combat ships and weapon fitting.

If you really want a turret battleship that doesnt need a power grid mod, use tempest fleet issue. It has a few thousand PG left over after filling its slots with 1400s and has similar bonuses to a mach as far as rof and damage go (just down 1 turret).

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This again isnt a fix it is a workaround, which as i mentioned earlier doesnt solve problems.

Let me add though that i appreciate the suggestion anyways.

The more I thought about your suggestion the more it emphasizes exactly how the system should work, I just want all the battleships to work, its a basic system of battleships and they should all fit with extra PG left over.

Congratulations, you just figured out why we have fitting mods in the game. Have a cookie!

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