T2 Large Projectile Turrets worth it?


(Malisar) #1

I’ve been doing some research on good ships/fits for L4 missions. I plan to train into a Machariel as a potential blitz ship. Actually I can already fly one, but have a question about T2 turrets…

So almost every fit I can find suggests using primarily EMP L. I’m sure this will vary depending on the rats, but I’ve read that the T2 ammo isn’t really worth using in PvE due to the lower tracking. I’m confused as to why most fits I see have T2 autocannons, even though it looks like T1 or faction ammo is suggested over Hail.

Is there any advantage to using T2 turrets if you’re going to use T1 and/or faction ammo? I thought the only difference was that T2 guns could use T2 ammo.

Just need some clarification if possible. Thank you!


(PI farmer1) #2

t2 guns still deal more dps and have better overall stats (other than fitting which shouldn’t be too much of an issue on a mach) than t1 guns, even when using the same ammo


(Kynami Vaille) #3

The T2 ammo is basically explosive locked. Which is why T1/Faction ammo is preferred when you want to be hitting for a different damage type. But the T2 guns are indeed still a step up.


(erg cz) #4

Even with T1 ammunition T2 guns benefit from specialization bonus.


(Anderson Geten) #5

barrage makes short work of the “blockade” vs angel.


(Malisar) #6

I used the Compare Tool to see the difference between 800mm Repeating Cannon II and 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I. With the exception of T2 guns having higher fitting costs, the stats are exactly the same (optimal, falloff, tracking, rof, and damage mod)

Good point, I forgot about this. I see Autocannon Specialization as one of the only advantages if using T1/faction ammo. I probably wouldn’t train it past lvl 3 anyway, so will +6% damage make a huge difference for most PvE content?


(PI farmer1) #7

Yes, some meta variants have the exact same stats as t2 but t2 benefits from specialization


(Kynami Vaille) #8

That is +6% of additional multiplicative damage bonus. So basically using the T2 guns with three ranks trained is a final X * 1.06 to your damage dealt on top of all your other effects. Thus 500 DPS would become 530 DPS.

The harder you hit the less time NPCs have to hit you letting you fit much more towards damage than tank thereby increasing the speed at which you clear content and thus make ISK. There are some limits in cost effectiveness as to how far you can take this before other parties look at your ship and see a pinata waiting to be smashed. But T2 is worth the added cost.


(Chainsaw Plankton) #9

Damage is one of the most important parts of blitzing. I’d suggest doing just about anything possible to max it. It’s probably worth taking the Large AC spec skill to 4. People will pay a bunch of isk for damage implants or faction damage mods, I’d rather take that similar bonus by training a skill (hell I have it at 5).

as for the ammo most fits will show EMP because it’s easy to pick in fitting tools, I’m lazy and just pick the first one. Phased Plasma and Fusion do the same damage as EMP and you will want to pick whichever one hits the biggest resist hole possible.

If you are shooting angels then hail becomes pretty viable, you are faster than them so you can control tracking and range, well that and 800mm AC tracking is good enough even using hail doesn’t really hurt it much vs pve targets. Also hail works great vs structures where you can just sit there and blast away.

also the utility of barrage is nice to have, some ships spawn at range and it’s easier to just blap them with barrage.


(erg cz) #10

There is a tool, called PYFA. Download it and make it use your current skills. You will see what benefit you will have from getting next level on some particular skill for some particular ship fit. You will also see ISK/performence ratio of adding some better modules (to decide if it is worth go bling or not)


(Malisar) #11

I use pyfa already, but didn’t realize it calculated isk/performance ratio. Pretty cool. Where does it display this?


(Old Pervert) #12

I don’t think it directly does; that said it’s pretty easy to abstract it in your head. Sometimes it’s worth fitting the republic shield extenders (ignoring better reasons such as fitting requirements), other times… not so much. Isk/performance is subjective.

T2 projectile turrets are well worth it. The ammo… meh.

Also, I honestly can’t speak to mission running as I don’t do it… but I’d be shocked if faction ammo was worth it. Run the cheap stuff. Faction is definitely better, but orders of magnitude more expensive.


(Zhilia Mann) #13

This. Now granted, I’ve been at this for awhile, but I have all subcap weapon specs to 5 (except large disintegrator spec, but I’m sure I’ll find time for it next year).

Is going to 5 a top priority? No. Is going to 4 entirely worth it for any weapon system you use? Yes. Definitely.


(Butt Cigar) #14

When someone brings out a tool that concentrates on analysing applied dps, I’ll start using that tool.


(elitatwo) #15

How would you suggest to develop this?

That imaginary tool cannot know your position in space, your acceleration vector, your target position in space, your target’s acceleration vector, your vector intersecting your targets vector, your current speed and signature radius, your targets current speed and signature radius, your RNG role for your specific guns.

The client knows all those things and shows the result as blue colored damage applied but you may only be able to make a graph after the fact.


(Anderson Geten) #16

you can have the damage resist by waiting for a critical. crits are … 300% damage? I think.
Sure you need to degroup your guns.
Then you can have your maximum damage quality by comparing the last non-crit hits damage with base damage (=crit/3)
from damage quality you get the hit quality (max damage ratio=quality for non-crits )
from hit quality , you get the square distance to your application.(quality = 0.5^sqrdst)
from square distance, plus overview distance and angular speed, you can deduce the signature. (sqrdst = (distance-opti/falloff)² + (angspeed*40000/track/sig)² )

Tha’s the theory … then you need to have a tool with access to all those data.


(Zhilia Mann) #17

I’m going to go ahead and do what I do best: be incredibly pedantic. So brace yourself.

  1. No one cares about acceleration vectors and they play no role in damage calculations. Instead, we need to care about velocity vectors.
  2. Except that we don’t. While we could reconstruct all the information needed through some quick-for-a-computer math if we had those vectors, we don’t have to do so. All we really care about is angular velocity, which is already available on the overview.
  3. Speed is one component of said velocity vectors.
  4. Your signature radius is, of course, both irrelevant and easy to discern.
  5. Your target’s signature radius can only take on fixed values since there are a highly finite number of ways of changing base signature radius of any given ship. It wouldn’t actually be that hard to discern with a high degree of certainty which possible combination pertains, especially since…
  6. It wouldn’t be all that hard to figure out the RNG’s role either. We know the formula it uses, after all, and there’s only a single roll for each shot. Take enough shots and gather the data and you should be able to fill in everything else with high-accuracy assumptions.

(Cypr3ss Deteis) #18

Am pretty sure that EFT can do this.
It enables you to configure the attacking ship and target ship velocity vectors, then plots the damage vs distance from the attacking ship (based on the fits of the two ships selected).

@Butt_Cigar I’ve not used it but it sounds like it can do what you’re looking for.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.


(Zhilia Mann) #19

Pyfa does pretty well:


(elitatwo) #20

Yep, your explosion legion does make really sharp and perfect 104-105° turns.

You can almost see what’s going on there.