Attack / Combat Corvettes

[Rail_J_kar]

Basic premise is basically a t1 frigate line (though it will be called a corvette) that has high agility (50% the align time of t1 frigates) and battleship warp speed which will keep it in line with current rookie ships.

I don’t overly care about the bonuses and other ship stats as long as they are balanced. I propose a combat role bonus (equal to frig level 3-4,) and a single per level non combat bonus that scales off the frigate skill. Alternatively a new corvette skill could be added to the game, and let everyone train it to 5.

Justification:

1. newbros being able to warp out faster in case things get a little hairy for them.
2. a cheap 2 sec align ship that otherwise has minimal stats.
3. a quick align ship for battleship pilots to save their pod (will require “corvettes” to be added to the frigate escape bay.)

The offset for these benefits is the ship will have battleship warp speed (which considering the rookie ships also have 3.0AU/sec warp speed, I propose that being a defining feature of “corvettes” going forward.)

Everyone likes art, so here are the mockups I drew for them.

I don’t have my heart set on those designs, I just threw them together to add some inspiration.

The Gallente design started from the idea of having the front of the ship ripped off and had it’s internals exposed, then plating covering the squishy internals. Once I started drawing, I gravitated toward the verticality and ended up making it a mini-Myrm.

The Caldari ship is the least inspired of the lot, but it takes a bit from the Osprey. When I started, I intended to add a bit more of the bar from the Sweedish AWACS (S100D Argus) below the ship and attached to the front section, but it got lost during the various redraws.

The Minmatar design is inspired by my dislike for the Talwar, even though it oddly ends up looking pretty similar, just rotated 90 degrees. I’ve been having this idea of a ship that’s designed after a wall for a while now, and that’s where the leading profile comes from (but is also in line with the tempest design.)

The Amarr design started out as a nod to the old executioner model and the navy slicer. But after having to redesign the front view (because it was terrible) I noticed how the lines made it look like the Amarr logo, so I leaned in on that. (Round spots are turret hard points.)

[Arthur_Aihaken]

The only problem with a 2-second align hull is that with rigs, modules and implants this will turn into a sub 1-second align - potentially making it immune to interception.

[Syzygium]

I don’t really see a noticable benefit over existing frigates tbh…

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Rail_J_kar

a cheap 2 sec align ship that otherwise has minimal stats.

I don’t think newbies need a cheap 2 sec align ship besides a (noncombat) shuttle.

2s align ships cause a very non-interactive game and such a huge benefit should not be trivially handed out to newbies on combat hulls.

The current design of the Corvettes is better with slow warp speed and slow align times on free hulls. It also means that newbies will feel an upgrade in agility when they stop flying free corvettes.

T1 frigates are cheap and easily accessible to newbies, I am not sure what problem or gameplay gap adding a new ship line between corvettes and frigates solves.

@Rail_J_kar

Alternatively a new corvette skill could be added to the game, and let everyone train it to 5.

Corvettes have flat bonuses not scaling with any skills on purpose, because this means that any new character can make immediately use the full combat capabilities of the ship.

Because of this I don’t think a corvette skill is a good idea.

I do like the Mockups by the way, nicely done!

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Arthur_Aihaken

The only problem with a 2-second align hull is that with rigs, modules and implants this will turn into a sub 1-second align - potentially making it immune to interception.

2s align ships already are practically immune to interception and interaction besides the most dedicated gate camps, which are rare.

I agree that the game shouldn’t make these align times available too easily.

[Rail_J_kar]

Fair points all.

@Arthur_Aihaken

The only problem with a 2-second align hull is that with rigs, modules and implants this will turn into a sub 1-second align - potentially making it immune to interception.

@Gerard_Amatin

2s align ships already are practically immune to interception and interaction besides the most dedicated gate camps, which are rare.

Smart bombs. Its slow warp speed means an attacker could warp after it and land first.

I don’t know that it needs to be 2sec align by default (or if it is, have some mod slots that are already filled with nanos / inert stabs.) Nor am I overly tied to the idea that it needs to be 2 seconds; 3 could work as well.

Considering that glaring weakness and the 3AU/sec warp speed, I don’t think people would justify using it in null/lowsec for longer travel.

@Gerard_Amatin

Corvettes have flat bonuses not scaling with any skills on purpose, because this means that any new character can make immediately use the full combat capabilities of the ship.

Solid point, and one I was partial too as well when mulling over the idea. The ship concept is supposed to bridge the gap between current corvettes and the frigate line, so I thought maybe introducing the idea of scaling would help that, but upon further reflection, I think you’re right. Flat bonuses only would be best.

@Gerard_Amatin

The current design of the Corvettes is better with slow warp speed and slow align times on free hulls. It also means that newbies will feel an upgrade in agility when they stop flying free corvettes.

True, the faster align of frigates over current corvettes is noticeable, but that upgrade would be even more noticeable on a ship designed for fast align.

The Attack / Combat Corvette would roughly have the same industry requirement as a frigate (or maybe w/e materials are in the new region - perhaps that’s tritanium only.)

@Gerard_Amatin

T1 frigates are cheap and easily accessible to newbies, I am not sure what problem or gameplay gap adding a new ship line between corvettes and frigates solves.

Beyond just adding new ships, which seems to generally be popular with the player base, it just smooths out that progression line. Granted, it’s not hard to get into a frigate, and some of them are practically free (cheapest Jita price I’ve seen is 30k isk for Navitas,) but it does put a more combat capable hull in the player’s hands that’s not skill intensive.

Also, I’m somewhat hoping CCP/FC will let Vanguard players use corvettes in the future for personal transport. So making a better corvette will give them an upgrade path.

@Gerard_Amatin

I do like the Mockups by the way, nicely done!

Glad you enjoyed them. I was pretty happy with the results, though I’m sure CCP/FC would still want to refine them if any of the ideas were used (for this idea, or a frigate line.)

[Sere_O_Asis]

@Rail_J_kar

You should look at the Gallente Atron. You can already get a less than two second align fit on the Atron for a day one newbie.

I have a 440,000 sp character that has trained Evasive Maneuvering to 3 and she can fly that less than two second fit. It’s a 1.96 sec align, 5 AU warp fit, with no implants no rigs, just inertial stabs.

I can’t speak to anything other than the atron for a day one character, but i’m something of an align time “junkie”, and @Arthur_Aihaken is right in his assessment of less than one second aligning capabilities. It is way too easy to fit ships for a sub 1 sec align, if you put your mind to it.

@Rail_J_kar

The ship concept is supposed to bridge the gap between current corvettes and the frigate line

Are you just looking to lower cost? If so, for Gallente players, I think the atron is given out free. At least I remember it that way. It’s been a long time since I was new, I don’t really remember what I got.

I don’t really have an opinion on your proposal as such, except that, for Gallente characters, what you are proposing seems to already exist, with a ship, the atron, that is given out during the tutorial, the existing tutorial. You just have to know how to fit it.

[Wolfgang_Jannesen]

I do love to see player ship mockups but there just is no niche here that a day-one alpha couldn’t get from a frigate and get much better.

I don’t see the point but I do love the designs, keep that up for sure.

[Syzygium]

@Rail_J_kar

Beyond just adding new ships, which seems to generally be popular with the player base, it just smooths out that progression line. Granted, it’s not hard to get into a frigate, and some of them are practically free (cheapest Jita price I’ve seen is 30k isk for Navitas,) but it does put a more combat capable hull in the player’s hands that’s not skill intensive.

No frigate is “skill intensive” and the basic T1 frigates would need to be more powerful than “Attack Corvettes” anyway.

And btw, many of them you simply can fit to sub 3sek align, even to sub 2sek align.

So, more ships for the sake of having more ships isn’t a good point imho.

[Slasher, 0815]

IFFA Compact Damage Control
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Enduring Multispectrum Shield Hardener
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor

150mm Light ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
[Empty High slot]

Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Small EM Shield Reinforcer II

Sub 2sec align, can fight, can run, can be boarded on Day 1 of playing the game after a few career missions…

What do you need “Attack Corvettes” for?

[Rail_J_kar]

@Sere_O_Asis

Are you just looking to lower cost?

I wouldn’t say it’s a non factor, but that isn’t the overall driving force.

As I said, and you quoted, the main point is to bridge the gap between the current corvettes and the frigate line. It actually takes a new player quite a few skills to get a frigate to function well. Sure, frigates will manage the career agent missions (most of them are doable with the current rookie ships) but you wont be solo killing Dagan with newbro frigate skills.

@Syzygium

No frigate is “skill intensive”

Compared to a carrier or even a battleship, I agree, but it’s a matter of relative perspective. Ask a new player with a week of training to solo kill Dagan and they probably wont be able to do it.

@Syzygium

the basic T1 frigates would need to be more powerful than “Attack Corvettes” anyway.

I have no qualms against that. I didn’t go into depth about the ship balance because it’s irrelevant to the basic premise, but I guess my thought was more or less 3 turrets and a combat bonus roughly equal to a level 3 - 4 combat frigate (so we’re talking somewhere in the range of 3.25 -3.5 effective turrets where as most combat frigates are 3.75 - 5 effective turrets / launchers at level 5 - except for the Tristan’s 2 turrets, which relies on its drones for damage.)

@Syzygium

btw, many of them you simply can fit to sub 3sek align, even to sub 2sek align.

True, but you have to gut the ship to manage that.

@Syzygium

Sub 2sec align, can fight, can run, can be boarded on Day 1 of playing the game after a few career missions…

I simulated your fit on a character with 20 million combat sp. 3.29 second align (which makes it a 4 second align ship due to tick rate) and it costs 17.6 million isk (and well over 20 in Hek.) You can get your fit below 3 sec by changing that dcu out for a t2 inertial stabilizer, but as I mentioned before, you’re gutting your ship’s capability by doing that.

You can get an Atron to be sub 2 by filling the lows with t2 stabs and a nano but once again, you’re gutting the ship’s capability.

@Arthur_Aihaken

The only problem with a 2-second align hull is that with rigs, modules and implants this will turn into a sub 1-second align - potentially making it immune to interception.

It does seem like part of the criticism stems from potential abuse, and a potential sub 1 sec align build that would be impossible to catch.

So, give the ships a 50% penalty to inertia modifiers (inert stab 2 gives -10% instead of -20%) and a default align of 2.5. That way you still have to gut the ship if you want sub 2 second align, but will allow for a sub 3 second align while actually being able to build with combat mods.

@Syzygium

What do you need “Attack Corvettes” for?

At this point I think I’ve made the case, but if you still disagree, then all I can say is thanks for participating in the discussion.

@Wolfgang_Jannesen

I don’t see the point but I do love the designs

Glad you enjoyed them.

[Rail_J_kar]

I’d like to add that I think these ships could lead to a skirmish meta that a lot of new players can’t really participate in due to lack of skills (need interceptor skills to really do it justice.)

After a large fleet fight, you will see scavengers pick over the wrecks, and you’ll get this interesting environment where players will be warping around between the wrecks. Some to pick over the loot, and some to try to catch the scavengers.

Having more ships that are combat viable in that environment will only make the game more dynamic. Sure, you’ll also get more scavengers, but that also means there’s more targets, and no matter how good the ship is, people make mistakes.