Auto-Targeting Heavy Missiles in PVP

PvP Gameplay Center Warfare & Tactics
22

Well the only true AFK weapon system is drones or smartbombs.

Problem with drones is they can be destroyed and thus need management to launch replacements.

Problem is smartbombs is blast range, CAP drain and accidentally damaging friends.

AT Missiles require player input to activate and requirements of target has locked you and within Missile range.

One thing that seems to be forgotten is even though the AT Missiles have a slightly lower damage to precision t2 Missiles, is they can engage sooner, so a 4000dps ATM setup will apply damage well before you can get a lock with standard Missiles, and that extra time is extra damage.

Remember dps only counts from when you can apply damage so even 5sec of firing means the ATM has already fired one volley if not two depending on size of Missiles and fit. So saying a standard gives an extra 200dps means nothing if the standard Missiles haven’t even launched while the ATM has already launched 1-2 volleys, this is the point the ATM let you engage sooner than you can lock a target, and against smaller sized targets a long time before you can engage standard Missiles.

You’re comparing ATM locktimes based off ships with high scan res. to your ships scan res.
Eg an Armageddon RHML fit has a scan res of 170 (say) and a cruiser jumps it with a scan res of 400 and a signatureof 200m, with standard Missile ammo requires the Armageddon’s 170scan res to lock a 200m target (say 7sec) that how long before you can even activate your launchers. Meanwhile the cruiser with a high scan res locks you in 3secs, with ATM once this happens you can engage (and in most cases the cruiser with be within 50km of you well within the @54km Missile range). So by the time you lock the cruiser the ATM have completed one cycle and already started it’s next.

Now I agree standard T2 Missiles do slightly more damage than ATM when skills are equal, but as noted they have the advantage of faster engagement times.

With my skills T2 precision Missiles have a slightly faster ROF and damage*(thus a 200dps difference)*, but ATM has better application than Rage and better range than Precision. We’re talking 10m radius and 10m/s differences in explosion radius, @12km longer range than Precision Heavy Missile, and 0.05 ROF difference (these are rough figures, as not at pc atm)

But just to hammer the key point in, the engagement time of ATM over T2 Missiles is how fast target locks you vs you locking them. If you’re got the locking advantage then T2 is the way to got, but as noted else where this requires target lock, if you’re got ECM against you then ATM is better as they will still engage any hostile target within range and you can send your drones to kill the ecm ship.

23

you’re only saving the time between when they lock you and you lock them not the entire lock time. so rather than 5 seconds your probably saving 0-1 second

24

I realize that. Precision missiles have a volley comparable to T1s and are much inferior to Caldari missile and auto-targeting missiles being “almost as good” means their volley is even weaker. Although I thought auto-targeting actually was slightly better in damage, but with a lower explosion velocity than precision missiles their damage would be less on anything moving even a little unless it’s super-huge. Eh, you’ve used them so you’re probably right on which one does more damage, but just being in the ballpark of precision missiles mean auto-targeting missiles have a weak volley.

That’s true.

Wait what? No… consider that you can use auto-targeting missiles (and their low advertised damage) to do reduced damage to every hostile target that’s near you or use Caldari missiles (and their high paper damage) against the guy who you still have a lock on, the jammer. The jammer is probably moving, but the stuff the auto-targeting missiles would hit probably are moving too, so hitting the jammer with Caldari missiles would still do more damage. If the jammer was out of range, then yes auto-targeting missiles would be better since you’re at least doing some damage, but Caldari heavy missiles can easily hit anyone jamming you. I think even rage missiles would still be in range, although I wouldn’t suggest it if the jammer is a frigate.

I’m glad we got a good conversation going and I’m rooting for you. I want you to think of some cool out-side the box tactic and prove “well, these might not be good general use missiles, but in this niche situation, they’re good.” Unfortunately, thanks to the weak volley of auto-targeting missiles, it’s difficult to find a use for them.

I wonder why the Armageddon has weaker sensors than the Raven. Missiles go well with drones, so if you’re going to load some weapons in the highs to go with the neuts instead of going all-in on neuts, that’s not a bad idea.

25

The scan res were just example and not actual as haven’t been at pc.

Faction missiles tend to be better than T1 and Precision, ether by damage or application.

ATM Missile gain all the standard Missile bonuses and the ATM skill adds more damage unlike the Missile spec skills which increase ROF. So the damage from ATM skill is added to all the other skills. So lvl5 will add 25% damage onto of the base Missile damage of plus 25%.

I personally use RAGE against long range targets, and depending on situation precision or ATM. If there’s no ECM and a number ships it precision, but if you have the same situation with ECM it’s ATM and drones focus on the ECM ship. With larger numbers of small ships or swarms its the ATM and use drones to engage the larger targets. So as you can expect with 5 RHML grouped (5 Missile volley) kills drones one hit and in some cases frigates, larger classes can be done depending on resistance holes.

ATM aren’t a one solution answer, it’s still recommended to use other ammo to use depending on situation and drones. Like any other weapon system there are limitations, ATM just give launchers an added arrow to their bow.

26

I once killed a bomber that attacked me while I was using auto-targetting missiles on a Caracal to see if it could clear low-level anoms in lowsec. He hit harder then the NPCs did, so my missiles decided to go for him instead :smiley:

27

Which kind of missiles were you using? Caracal has many launcher types.

28

Probably RLML

29

That’s only reinforcing my point if you’re right. Heavy missiles, while not ideal, wouldn’t actually do bad damage on stealth bombers if it uses the Signature Radius divided by explosion radius part of the formula instead of the evil looking part of the formula with velocity and an exponent. I wouldn’t be surprised if he killed a bomber standing still with either type of missile since while auto-targeting missiles have a lot less damage than Caldari missiles and heavy missiles would have minor application problems on a small stationary target, stealth bombers aren’t exactly tanky. But if said bomber decided to align to a warp point and then decloak to launch torpedos or even just decided to fight to the death by orbiting him, I’d be surprised if auto-targeting heavy missiles managed to save him.

30

Heavy missiles actually have a hell of a time applying to small targets even if they are not moving.

Turrets transversal is the most important part but with missiles it is sig. No matter how fast a target is going so long as it’s signature is big enough you can apply. However even if your missile has infinite explosion velocity you won’t apply to a target significantly below your explosion rad.

31

I mean throw in a missile guidance module and it’s something like 30% of full damage on a stationary give or take depending on the frigate. That’s a lot worse than 100%, but I know when attacking the rats that heavy missiles do not do close to 30% damage to the small rats even though I looked up their sig radii and calculated the damage if the S/E was applied.

But that’s besides the point. If Geo is right about Inxentas’s kill, then his example just reinforces my point.

32

well you can’t exactly fit a heavy missile launcher and expect to have a decent caracal fit. (cannot fit RHML on a caracal either)

33

That’s fair enough, but it does emphasize my point that auto-targeting heavy missiles don’t seem to have any PVP use.

34

Well to get the best out of ATM is to use Rapid launchers, and with most ships in PVP is light rapids that would be used.
Not many use battleships on PVP roams, and Battlecruisers can’t mount many RHML’s before powergrid or CPU issues start happening.

35

So you think maybe rapid light ATM’s vs. a droney ship? Just fly in and start popping all their drones?

Otherwise it would be a huge pain to have to keep locking them as they deploy more, and reign in the old ones.

36

Not Heavy missiles, so not a valid use of ATHM even if it could be used that way

37

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