Balance Updates Coming with Uprising!

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@Stitch_Kaneland

This is why I am concerned about the Muninn changes. The current Muninn can with T2 get around 4K PG and maximum is 5.9K PG. Note that is one Cruise Missile Launcher. T2 Cruises are a bit higher but the PG is enough to get about 4 on the hull. 3 would be standard. Torpedoes about 2 maybe 3 if I squeeze it right. This is just the bare bone outline, of what I am planning to do if you guys change this to a Missile Boat. Do you really want a ADCU capable cruise missile launcher? Now lets bring it down to earth all of the bonuses for this new hull will affect RLML and RHML which will cause other problems. Even though they nerfed the PG to 1K versus 1116 [baseline] it will barely even inconvenience my concepts.

A silly concept but the Muninn you guys are complaining about is small potatoes compared to what I have played with. With a fit similiar only T2 you guys can start shooting in 140km range. And with drugs the damage and range can go further up.

You know whats funny, turret ships are very fun because there is more fitting sheenigans to do versus the boring meta of missiles. And yes that is laser muninn.

As I have said before, its not the hull that is wrong. Its the players playstyle [blob] that is the wrong thing. The Muninn was being used like a musketman in a line. So basically the blob is being used like a shotgun with all those artillery ships. So how do we nerf the shotgun? [figure out how to nerf tracking in falloff and force minmatar ship players to use the target painter to their benefit, hit the broadside of the barn. Ironically none of you are talking about how the MWD makes the Muninn Blob even more powerful, have you seen the signature bloom of some ships with MWD on?]

Ah and your implausible torpedo Muninn. That fit is available on Tranquility right now.

You know the Muninn is a really nice AC brawler with the capacity to hit 50km with one type of ammo and another inside 30km.
Muninn is also flexible in turrets. You can fit stable laser fits, blaster, and railguns. Each with their niche. Heck why don’t you nullsecers fit two whole fleets of Muninn MILINT style and go bash each other and see if changes the flow of battle. Make a mixed fit Muninn force. Have players with laser fits, players with AC fits. Have guys as tackle. [Muninn can fit a 500MD fairly comfortably from my experience] Raillgun Muninn which have longer range than the stupid artillery you are whining about. Have brawl fits with torpedos, or kites with cruises. Maybe even have some Blaster Muninns. At least try one last hurrah with the Muninn to see what you could possibly do with it. Before unimaginative nullsec is the cause of getting rid of a very unique and special hull.

Although, its your choice. Personally I want a multi-cruise/torp Muninn. Just to say told you so. Although a multi-rapid heavy muniin with long range capability is just as good a meme because of the missile boosting implants and equipment.

As, John Seena would say. “ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?”

Please do a last minute test of all HACs because there are some gems you guys are not using to full capacity.

Again its not the hull thats wrong, it the player playstyle thats broken. Test the ships out and you might find some surprises you guys didn’t consider.

Muninn can get at max about 4K-5K alpha strike, range is about 150km although it can be pushed to 160+ with boosters and implants. Sensor range can be topped at 300km. [Muninn is actually the medium range HAC because its weapons can’t hit that range. Other HACS [Eagle-Cerb] can out range it and nearly match the sensor range] PG can reach to 5.9K without ADCU in 5K with ADCU in. T2 fits are fairly flexible and there are some really unique combinations to be had. With turrets you have a larger variety of options and specializations with the Muninn.

There are counters to the muninn, but nullsec doesn’t want to use them because of the 100km range warp zone. If Munnins can be out ranged at 175km to 200km they are not going to be top dog. No one will want to have to fly through long range fire. Ironically the CCP changes will have the opposite effect, because people will pull range to prevent locks.

They need to look at speed of brawling ships or warp commands to allow brawlers to close the gap. Naturally a sniper Muninn should be hard countered by Brawling Ships. But factor in signature bloom and speed and angle and you are a big target for an arty muninn. [That is what needs some balance considerations]

The change to missile muninn will not change much, because now you will have a ship capable of selecting the hole of an enemies tank. Same blob tactic can be applied and missiles will have more range than artillery. And the ship will be very oppressive to smaller ships.

Brawling ships should have bonuses to MWD signature bloom reduction [much like interceptors.] Damps and ECM need to be looked at beause its a potential way to neuter the blobs. Maybe a review of concepts with AoE affect weapon weapon disrupts/ damps should be considered. We already have ECM bursts, and SB bombs that can break locks or sap capacitor. Maybe its high time that AoE damp and weapon disrupts come on the field to allow blob control. They will be weaker than directed ie targeted EWAR.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@CCP_Aurora
Can there be a discussion on AB [Afterburner] vs. MWD [Microwarpdrive] Modules?

Currently MWD has all the benefits speed, agility. Versus AB.
MWD has a signature bloom downside, but AB has no signature bloom downside but has a very severe inertial downside.

The consideration of this is because I think some changes between AB and MWD need to be considered.

MWD is fairly balanced, but its almost a 100% choice by players. I think AB needs either a speed upgrade or some sort of unique variable like if you have AB on for long range you actually get more top speed over a distance, but your agility and inertia takes a hit, meaning you can’t orbit or turn very well.

It might make usage of AB to close range for brawlers an option.

Also designated T2 brawling ships should have some sort of MWD signature bloom reduction bonus. So they can close to targets with a smaller signature. [Similar to the Interceptors at this moment] This is another factor why the HAC meta has been a bit upside down. Brawling ships can’t close in because signature blooms are so large it makes hitting the ships far easier than if their MWD was off.

Or the discussion needs to be that AB inertia penalty needs to be reduced a bit so players will chose it for close in moves or in dual prop fits to allow some capacity to close range and signature fight with their ships. If the inertia penalty was lowered for AB it becomes a more palatable choice in PVP combat.

[Drake_Iddon]

congratulations you spent about an hour writing out a thesis that has no real basis in reality

yes you could feasibly fit 4 cruise missiles or torp launchers on a muninn, however you give up ALL OF YOUR low slots, you have 50k ehp with the ADC turned on for a whopping 10 seconds max, when normal muninns get upwards of 60k ehp with it turned off. In return you have a weapon system that isnt instant damage, can be firewalled and does less damage than a jackdaw

the meta doesnt disagree with you because “people just arnt thinking correctly”, the meta and the playerbase disagrees with you because all of your fits and theory crafting is terrible and always results in low dps, high cost, low survivability ships

[Suki_Vokkonen]

@CCP_Aurora

• Blueprint LP Costs are reduced by 60% (for the faction Militia LP stores only)
• Blueprints for Navy ships no longer require factional Neurolink Conduits to build

Our goal is to adjust the prices involved here so that the blueprint store LP offerings are more economical than the direct ship trade-in, since there is additional time and effort involved in the manufacturing process.

Wow, finally!
Now, next step, remove the factional Neurolink Conduits from pirate frigates. Please ?

Version 20.05 General Feedback

@CCP_Paragon Any plan to fix pirate frigates who are 3-4 times the price of T2 frigates ? Like, removing their stupid Trigger Neurolink Conduit ? Why were these ships left untouched? Give the value back to the BPC for those who put the effort/risk to get them.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@Drake_Iddon what you didn’t realize, is many of these concepts are T2 capable.

Which is in range of all nullsec doctrinal thought processes. And in another twist some weapons systems can fit even better with T1 than T2. Although most of the time T2 usually are more efficient than T1. Check it out you might find some surprises. I only show the maximum. That Laser Muninn is rather cheap T2 equipment all around. If you are worried about price why not save all those dropped NPC modules T1 on up? That would save on costs. I hear you guys buy alot of NPC only drop modules from highsec especial for interdictors.

@Stitch_Kaneland maybe we need to see how the Advanced Weapon Upgrade is affecting module fitting? Especially T2? If you are complaining about the 720mm T2 Artillery Turrets maybe one should look at how those turrets would or would not fit with weapon upgrade and advanced weapon upgrade available. Or any other skill upgrade.

But if we tinker in that field you risk creating a further problem with the rest of EVE Online because you will be tampering with a much larger community and their finely honed fits.

From what I can tell because of full training alot of nullsec complains about minutae of fits and hulls. Why not try to fly a Muninn with lower skills and take notes of what might be too good then work up skills. And note some skills do not apply directly to ships but they do buff the modules that are fitted into a ship. Which complicates matters as well.

[Malak_Starfire]

T1, T2, doesn’t matter they are crap fits. Even the cruise missile fit with full missiles will only do about 3k volley and would blow up as soon as it’s locked by any ship. The lack of tank on your fits is a huge issue, you might get off a few volleys, but they really don’t hit any harder than competent fleet doctrines do. As soon the enemy FC realizes how weak the ships are, they’ll just tell the fleet to fire at will and your logi just won’t have the ability to prevent the mass destruction that will ensue.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@Malak_Starfire That is the difference.
Nullsec FC think ships are ammo. Why are you arguing against such a concept?

So if I fleet fit. meaning each variant is used as part of a larger action. This would give FC even more possible actions and capabilities. And we can tinker with the tank as necessary, you are going to get X amount of one stat to get Y downside.

Stagger Warp to Fleet member and ranges and other options becomes an interesting issue. You have an FC say free fire. His fleets DPS drops like a stone. While attacks are coming in from ranges some of which will be beyond his fleets normal range of targeting or engagement.

I will be not be surprised when someone starts using FCs in designated Wing/Squad function. And doesn’t just “doctrine fit” but Fleet Fits. With units constructed with various variants and support ships in action.

300km is the golden area in this game. But I can promise you that missile ships already break this rule, and in blackholes this goes even further. But in plain jane nullsec the doctrine thinking has lead to stagnation in game. Each hull can be used in a variety of ways, and can be fit to help overall options on the battlefield.

Try to test all the ships…try to fit ships via hull and see which empire ships can be the most flexible in their own right in fitting and atypical fitting. Heck there are T1 ships that have weird bonuses which get them pretty close to the HACs. Tinkering with a Maller fit I have goofed around with. 81% resist at T1 tech level seems a bit high and you can shove it higher through various means.

Before you guys start encouraging sledgehammer balancing…you never want to see that situation. Look we nerfed X, then the game falls in on itself in a few major sectors.

I keep noticing you guys dance around the subject of blob control. There are potential ways to control large spam of ships. But neither does Nullsec want these, nor do they want CCP or CSM ask questions on this front. Nerfing a hull doesn’t bring blobbing to heel, it will just change to a new ship. The Range nerfs are a laughing joke, because with a few modules/rigs/implants we’re back in business. Swapping the weapons doesn’t help either because it means you have made a problem even worse in a unique way. And you guys are really nervous of the Vagabond doing the same thing as its replacement. [Which means the weapon type needs some reworking…not the hull…maybe artillery is too accurate in falloff? Maybe the damage amount dished out at maximum range even outside of falloff needs to be questioned.] Why does artillery get alot more damage at max, while rail guns which completely eclipse them in range don’t get any askance why the damage is so low?

[Drake_Iddon]

I hear you guys buy alot of NPC only drop modules from highsec especial for interdictors.

1: interdictor modules dont drop from npcs
2: who are “you guys”
3: you realise my ship of choice is a panther that costs in the region of 70-80b right? I dont think funding is an issue, nor is it relevant to the discussion

Nullsec FC think ships are ammo. Why are you arguing against such a concept?

correct, in nullsec ships are regarded as ammo, so why are you trying to give them rubber L as an ammo when they want to be loading something useful

your fits arnt fleet fits

your fits arnt solo ships

they arnt even small gang fits

they are bad, nothing more

may i present to the jury, some lossmails of the man that thinks he has good ideas:

Legion | MILINT ARC Trooper | Killmail

Stabber Fleet Issue | MILINT ARC Trooper | Killmail

Maller | MILINT ARC Trooper | Killmail

and clearly my favorite one: Hurricane | MILINT ARC Trooper | Killmail | zKillboard the 2x dual 425, cruise launcher, medium shield booster hurricane that has no damage mods

[ResonanceOfWar]

Range means nothing if you have to sacrifice everything for it, a small interceptor gang (15) will wreck 50 of those easily.

The new muninn is fine but it wont be used as snipers.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@Drake_Iddon
You don’t know the context of those losses. Which makes me laugh a bit.

The Legion was a mistake on my part, because I was 100km off an event site [rogue drone I believe.] And accidentally hit the wrong button decloaking. Found some of the event sites have a special “boost” for non allowed ships. This was the event where destroyers and frigates were allowed through. Braindead yes, but it was an EVE Darwin award. But that ship had a pretty powerful laser weapon set. I found through that ship alot of NPC one shot limitations. Did you know that a laser weapon can create a rather odd pulse in the server? Each NPC has a damage limit in specific damage numbers. In most sites you can easily exceed with some fits the NPC limits which creates some odd effects on server ticks. The damage limit will be hit with lasers, the server seems to read first the EM damage then Thermal Damage. One shotting most targets. Also most NPCs do not have the same capsuleer shield upgrade that forces damage to the shield first. So you can actually with some NPCs bypass their shields completely and damage the hull and armor HP underneath. Ship was replaced with two hulls and I have two new Experimental ships of that class.

The Stabber actually worked for the lowsec Liberation Game sites. The only problem was no real align benefit. So I had completed a spread of sites in Molden Heath, I was planning on moving up to Teonsude and bailing out. I was caught by a gate camp team. It was also a Polarized Passive Regen fit. Ironically this ship was actually very good for what it did, the only little thing I didn’t add the was the shield pod that would have boosted it even further. Many times I don’t aggress because I would rather jump back through. But no MWD. But if my shield regen was higher that Loki pilot wouldn’t have been very happy to see a slow boater get away. Ship was replaced and a new hull operates in the same configuration. This hull has proven the concept and if sent into Pulsar its regen becomes seriously insane, especially if boosted by shield command on top of the capsule implant effects. 3K shield hp/s is fully possible with that configuration. If I take the Polarized off…need I say more?

Maller was one of my favorite meme fits for the Cruiser free for all. Pretty effective too. Forced a few draws where both players died. Which hacked off people used to winning all the time. Not as impressive as the 0 Hull Sentry Vexor that one had a good fight in there. That particular fit can get over 80% resists with only T1 modules and rigs. I couldn’t afford the hardskill implants. [Which are not limited in use to the Abyss ironically.] If I had hardskills + meta level booster in that ship becomes a real pain in the backside. My skills are higher now, so even the lackluster drones that I also sent in that fit will now be more potent. Although I should say, CCP needs to look into the meta levels of Hardskill Implants because that kind of goofs around with the 1v1 and free for all fights. Because if players have the highest hardskills they dominate pretty hard in there. Oh and by the way EWAR drones get around the EWAR restrictions in the abyss too.

Ah the Hurricane, that was a YOLO because I wanted the enter the Abyss skillpoints for something. Funny thing about Abyss PVP rules. Tier and Meta Level applies to everything including weapons and modules. So you can upgun and downgun as you please. Oversize modules and weapons. Ironically Pando got me, got to chat with him because of it. I need to schedule my training op with him sometime. Currently my comp is in the shop.

Each one has a story and an adventure and something learned. Isn’t that what EVE is about? If I want to play the fool or mad scientist that is my angle to chose. And if it works okay.
@Drake_Iddon the only thing I hear from your commentary is derision and mockery because I don’t fit your prescribed way of how a player should play EVE.

Case and Point. The Maller fit, Amarr ships have alot of lows so you can adjust them in some pretty funky ways. What inspired me to that particular fit was the EoM [Equilibrium of Man] Event. They use Hybrids on Amarr hulls. Which ironically fit very nicely and sip capacitor versus laser weapons. So I began a series of experiments with such ship formats. Its been fun and interesting.

Honestly though from my experience midslots do not have as much benefit as low slots. For some odd reason. Maybe its lowslot materials tend to be more PG-CPU beneficial than Mid Slot.

Instead of Mocking People based on a worthless killmail, maybe ask why was MILINT doing that? I usually make sure not to die too often, its one of my EVE rules. Everyone harps on “don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose”…mine is try to not lose more than three ships in a month. Hence why I am on a break for a moment. But my Experimental Fleet is still active.

I did a whole post nearly four months ago on the Muninn and those fits posted above actually are old and well known.

@ResonanceOfWar are you sure about that? How far can a missile ship shoot? From my experience even with smaller frigates 300km is fully possible. And that is the low end. And in some very special circumstances speed and range can be further enhanced. Heavies and Lights can get into the 300km envelope Cruises can go over 1K km. Blackholes are such wonderful places for missile ships. Now in regards to the Muninn, its ADCU will make it more resilient in that role. If you have a mixed Vagabond/Muninn Fleet you might not like the results. Vagabond can hit you down fairly fast with artillery, but the Muninn which deliver the Missile Knockout. And other fits can allow the Muninn to go longer ranged both with nerfed sensor range and put alot of long range pressure.

[Scarabeus_Sacer]

The range nerf on the HACs is absurd.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@Scarabeus_Sacer
Personally I think they should have focused on buffing brawling ship speeds. So those ships can close faster and get under the guns.

Baseline hull speeds for brawling ships. Like Deimos and other ships. And giving brawling ships some bonuses like signature reduction with MWD active would make more sense period.

Tracking bonus reduction/ or falloff reduction might have worked. But against sniper fits…the Muninn actually is the medium range HAC, other HACs completely outclass in it in range capacity. And can engage and shoot it outside of its weapon envelope.

[ResonanceOfWar]

Combat scanners and pounces let you warp on those 300km ships so all those extra mods and fittings become unused when they warp on you, balance is pretty important.

[Melamori]

Munnin 5 hi-slots for 5 launchers is kinda useless… for instance, w/o utility slots it cant be used for exploration. It could be a potential rival to Orthrus if you could fit a probe launcher.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

@Melamori did you steal my notes on the My Exploration Muninns?

But in all seriousness allowing other ships to function in game in outside of normal roles would be interesting.

@ResonanceOfWar that is what we want we want more activity in fleets. 300km ships do you keep duking it out with the 100km crowd or do you start a boosh jump fest with both sides trying to keep at least 100km in between each other. Offensive and Defensive use will have it. Might be an interesting question to ask no? Might stretch the grid alot more than localized fighting.

[NoName_Audanie]

heavy ASSAULT cruiser. not heavy SNIPER cruiser

[Jon_Tekitsu]

With these and also the changes posted on Reddit… dare I say, CCP is actually improving the game?

[Lolvar_Kuner]

Anyone want to buy a Muninn?

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

I want a few…but since I can’t fit lasers and rail guns anymore.

Oh well.

[NoName_Audanie]

Muninn top number 1 bravler for mid/small scale.