What you cannot do with character -5 and lower in highsec:
you can’t do pve in highsec content because of faction police, however most gankers are using one purpose alts for this activity or they are dedicated to ganking, afterall, pve is boring as hell. Plus, you can always do missions/anoms in low/nullsec, it is even much faster to repair the security status from there if you ever wished to.
you can’t do meaningful pvp because faction police will interact, you either gank or sit in station
likewise you cannot defend your structures in any other way than gank the attackers
you practically can’t fly around highsec in slow-warping ships because you can be attacked by player anytime
you can’t mine
you can’t autopilot
you can’t cloak
stay afk anywhere in highsec outside station/tether with ship because of faction police
practically you can’t do PI in highsec either as it takes too long to loot from POCO but who wants to do PI in highsec?
What you still can do with character -5 and lower in highsec:
fly around in highsec with fast-warping ship
dock into every npc stations
buy, sell, trade
stay in space tethered to citadel
scan with probes (either by standing near citadel or between warping)
and obviously gank again
That is still a lot of actions you can do in highsec. Actualy if you look at it, the only actions you are banned from are actions of carebears and unwise actions such as autopilot. And there are no penalties in lowsec and nullsec which is better for almost everything except trading (which is not limited by any way with low security). And even if any of the limitations mattered to you, this is game of alts, you can do anything you wish in highsec on the other 2 character slots. Being a ganker doesn’t mark your account so you can be both “ganker in night” and “peacefull miner in day” if you wish to.
I still think that living with -10 in highsec is an exploit or abuse. You don’t care about security penalty, it has no effect on you anymore - you don’t spend time or ISK fixing your security status, you don’t need fast talk skill. You are immune to killrights from this point as well as nobody needs killright to attack you. You can’t stay anywhere for long so you only gank/use fast warping ships so you never lose anything that you wouldn’t be prepared to lose to concord anyway.
And because you don’t have to fix your security status, you can gank 24/7 and make it much more profitable. You can use t1 catalysts/thrashers to kill stupid t1 cruiser with nothing in cargo if you want as the security penalty hit no longer bothers you and thus the price for the gank is meaningless. You can pre-spawn concord to make ganking in next 24 hours easier and again don’t bother of losing security status because you don’t need to fix.
Losing security status should be a penalty/disadvantage to ganking. When you make an gank-alt or dedicated ganker and you handle everything else with neutral alt, you are mitigating these penalties and make them non-existant. In the end, each gank is more profitable for you as you don’t have to pay for tags (and they are not cheap) to gank again.
Seriously? Ignoring the actions you list that take place in a station given everyone is always safe in there, all that is left is moving around in a very limited number of ships and shooting someone for 20s every 15 minutes. You can’t do anything to make a PvE income, and you can’t engage in any PvP other than a suicide gank. The character is almost useless for anything other than being a criminal.
Honestly, that is 99%+ of all the content available while undocked in highsec. Aside from preventing outlaws from docking in an NPC station which I already enumerated, what other possible restrictions can you even conceive of to pile on outlaws and still allow them to interact with non-criminals in highsec?
How has it no effect anymore if you listed the effects point for point earlier in your post. The fact that some people have chosen to live with those consequences is another matter entirely and does not just makes those penalties go away.
I don’t see how adding a needless chore to this otherwise already very limited characters has any gameplay value at all. The only reason I see for anyone to make this suggestion is if he wants to make suicide ganking so tedious that no one bothers with it anymore.
The only reason for killright is to allow you to attack someone you could not otherwise attack. You choice of words here is kinda special and tells us what you are really on about. Obviously a ganker is not immune to killrights, the correct wording is killrights are not even required to attack him, since everyone has a permanent right to attack him.
One here is the consequence of the penalties you listed and the second is something everyone can do in EVE and is called preparation. Even a non criminal can only fly worthless ships, he has access to all the ships the ganker has and other than the ganker he can actually insure them and loses even less if it explodes.
The fact that some people are careless in what they fly where is not the fault of the ganker it is the fault of the player who chose the wrong ship or the wrong fit. A big part of EVE PvP is preparation and choosing the right ship for the right thing with the right fit.
Can you show us the numbers which let you to that conclusion, so we can compare the actual ISK/h to other activities like mission running, mining or incursions.
That is in highsec. You are 100% free to make PvE income in lowsec/nullsec where it is better anyway. And even if faction police wouldn’t be there, and I am all for removing it from the reasons Qia Kare highlighted, it would be still better to go do PvE into lowsec or nullsec.
Plus, it almost looks as if you think the penalties are too harsh and that repeated gankers should be able to do these things. (EDIT: except 15 minute timer, annoying indeed but it is reasonable)
But yes. I still seriously think the consequences are too light. The consequences to the gankers have practically zero effect on ganking (there are some small limitations but they can be work-arounded using combat probes or citadel tether and precise warp timing). As long as all you do is ganking you don’t have to worry about security status or killrights at all.
So basically there is no mechanism that penalizes you for ganking or makes ganking harder.
I am not saying repeated ganking shouldn’t be possible. It should. But ganking 24/7 shouldn’t be that cheap and easy as it is now. Imo banning them from npc stations would provide this effect. Gankers would have to choose - fix the sec status either by ratting or tags, move the base into nearest lowsec or deploy citadel - citadel can be destroyed so there goes content. And if you want to counter that gankers cannot defend it, let me stop you right there, they have 24hours from declaration and then 2 timers where one is up to 7days long to fix their security status in any way + they can always gank the attackers the same way they are ganking freighters can’t they? Or use alt / alt corp as ally or call/pay mercenenaries. Lots of options.
But except this, I agree that something should be done with faction police as atm it is only killing any possible anti ganking content. And I also mentioned concord pulling as you surely remember which is also stupid.
If the loot went into 1, max 2 peoples it would be. And in case of Uedama gankers it is. But they are multiboxing and they control 10+ accounts and they have to pay them all. I don’t think you can PLEX 10+ accounts from highsec ganking. And if you don’t multibox and you use real players then they expect share. So idk, sure, when you open the cargo after dead freighter and you see the 3bilions dropped it might look as super profitable but it is a bit complicated.
EDIT: plus sometimes some smartass as you steal your loot and you gain nothing or just scraps which is another thing you need to consider.
I can follow your logic behind this thought, but you assume gank victims will actually start shooting that citadel, which isn’t very likely going to happen. Alternatively they’d hire mercs, which is equally useless though, because of asset safety.
You don’t even need asset safety in highsec. You can move everything at any time with any alt not in the wardeced corp/alliance. No one is able to stop that.
I still don’t know how you can look at the mechanics for being an outlaw and come to this conclusion. Being free-to-shoot to any other player and having a tireless NPC police force show up anytime you even just loiter is space makes ganking much harder than it would if you were a positive-security status player. It limits what ships you can use, forces you to jump through several logistical hoop, and outright makes impossible ganking in certain places (like in mission pockets). Any mistakes or even a simple disconnects will result in the loss of the ship in space.
And no, I am fine with consequences. I think the faction police could use some iteration to create some more space for player-directed law enforcement and bounty hunting, but being a criminal in highsec should have consequences. The thing is, it already has plenty, so many in fact I cannot think of many additional limitations you can place on criminals without just legislating them completely out of existence in highsec.
I’m not totally against this idea, although I do think criminals would need some way to defend their in space assets if you actually want it to produce much content. I don’t think it will change much though as criminals are already deploying structures and using them, and even pre-Upwell had no problem operating in stationless systems. Career criminals already have the neutral alts needed to still use stations for most things and at most this adds a slight additional step for the criminals of boarding in space or in a Upwell structure.
It does come with some downsides. First it doesn’t make much sense lore-wise - why would the Emperor’s Family deny me docking as they literally love me? Just because some pencil-pusher at CONCORD says so? I’d much prefer to see station lockouts based on faction and corp standing than security status. But if we put that aside for greater game considerations, it still will disproportionately impact newer players who tank their security status in lowsec or through some highsec misadventure and who lack the alts the career criminals have.
So maybe it is an idea worth considering, but I don’t really see much benefit for the complications. I’d rather wait until CCP finds the time to completely re-engineer the CrimeWatch properly system then waste time on minor tweaks that aren’t really going to change anything.
I don’t assume anything. It is unlikely a guy you kill mackinaw to, will come after you or have even possibilities to do that. But there are more organized groups who might.
The point here is to remove any immunity to gankers who choose to stage from highsec (as all of them do). If you force them to use citadel they will be much more vulnerable and even though item safety is there, maybe just maybe someone will go after their citadels and maybe just maybe they fix their security status and defend it. Which is a content for both sides, where atm the only pvp content between criminals is to try shoot them afterr/meanwhile the gank to generate some cheap kill mails and bounties or maybe shoot their empty capsule too.
Yes they might deploy another citadel and move it all there, but I don’t think it is that simple. Speaking of CODE maybe it is, maybe they already do that, maybe no mechanic will make them vulnerable, but there are other gankers, smaller entities which do use npc stations and freeports, who will be vulnerable to wardec and losing a structure if you force them to use it.
Yes thats true, I totally hate it warps me at 0 everytime. I still don’t understand that mechanic as sometimes it lets you warp to 60 (case of the rogue drone event site for example) and sometimes don’t.
[quote=“Black_Pedro, post:75, topic:61576”]
I’m not totally against this idea, although I do think criminals would need some way to defend their in space assets if you actually want it to produce much content.[/quote]
I think the options are there.
having a non-criminal, war-able alt on that account either part of the ganking corp or the corp that deployed citadel or any other corp that will ally the war against citadel (as lets ´be real nobody is going to deploy that structure under the ganking corp)
fix security status by either ratting or tags (if you are staged in 0.5 you only need to go under -4.5 which is fairly cheap as nobody uses recruiter and trainer tags as those with -10 never bother with tags and thus demand/suppy makes them 3mil/piece)
pay mercs
gank the attackers
plus -10 character can controll citadel without any problems so…
So everyone being able to shoot you for free and having to warp every 5 seconds when not on a citadel is practically 0 effect? You have no idea how annoying and more difficult it makes things.
Must be cheap and easy when failures like you follow us around in a kitsune and see us ignore you’re there while you fail to stop ganks. I already stage out of citadels in most systems, this would do nothing but get you to the next thing you want to make ganking more difficult with.
There’s nothing stopping people from effective antiganking, you failures just want to stop 50 character fleets with 1 ship. If I so chose to I could making ganking completely miserable for other ganking groups just by myself, there’s nothing stopping you doing the same but being bad at the game.
That’s the difference between gankers and antigankers. We figure out and work with the mechanics with inventive ideas and we adapt to changes as shitty as they quite often are. All you do is complain that the mechanics are unfair because you’re not smart enough and don’t want to put the effort into using them to your advantage (which they heavily are).
Concord pulling is dumb, yes. I shouldn’t have to goto every system I want to gank in and make sure it’s pulled everytime. It should just apply the extra 6 seconds to every system by default.
Biased post coming from 24/7 ganker whose all characters are -10 except neutral bumping alt, neutral looter and bunch of neutral logistic operation alts.
If it is really so extremely difficult how does it not affecting your or mine operation at all? I have absolutely no problem ganking on -10 it is much cheaper and easier. How many ships I lost because I forgot whats my sec status, now when I know all my chars are chased by facpo in all hs I don’t do these mistakes.
The penalties that ganking causes are only effect you if you want to do anything else beside ganking in highsec. Which you don’t need to since this is game of alts, so everything you cannot do can do neutral alt outside corporation that is immune to any ganking penalty.
Also the penalties doesn’t scale. The moment you reach -4.5 it doesn’t matter how many further ganks you do it is all the same, same timers, same penalties. Which just incourages you to go total outlaw and don’t fix the security sttatus anymore.
It effects everything I do, especially with what and how I gank. I have 20-30 citadels because of it and I’d be ganking in Jita everytime I logged in if facpo didn’t follow me.
A literal shitter, my mom could gank ventures, but she wouldn’t call it an ‘operation’
Just admit it and link you’re main. 100% it’s some hauler that’s lost ships repeatedly or some salty antiganker who fails nonstop daily.
I’d love to see this clarification from CCP. Have a link?
And I know 12 that stayed subscribed to this game for over a year because they loved suicide ganking so much. Neither of our statements mean that wars or ganking have any significant effect on the overall retention rate of new players as was the question of that study.
