I was thoroughly enjoying our discussion last night (focused around Black Ops and cynos), so hopefully we can pickup where we left off (GMs, we all have thick skin - so while it may look like we’re kicking sand around, we’re nicely playing in our own sandbox - thanks in-advance).
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In terms of most commonly used, the Redeemer seems to clearly be dominating.
Redeemer - 98% efficiency (383,765 kills | 18,694 recent)
Panther - 98.4% efficiency (354,198 kills | 11,044 recent)
Sin - 97.8% efficiency (235,342 kills | 3,688 recent)
Widow - 97% efficiency (192,380 kills | 9,571 recent)
Marshal - 99.1% efficiency (122,567 kills | 6,268 recent)
Like i said in the other thread the efficiency of the black Ops is a really bad metric. A lot of the is just going to show ascetic over actual function when comparing the 4.
Right now the sin is in the worst place. From what i can tell it was neutered to compensate for the drone logi bonus that’s eclipsed by t3 logi. Sad thing is other than just giving it more dps I’m not really sure how to help it. The entire theme of the sin just rubs against what you want in blops.
The redeemer, full stop needs to lose its nuet bonus if you want nuets that’s what a pilgrim or legion is for. If that’s not something they want to do then it needs to at least lose a turret hard point. It shouldn’t be the best armor tank, the best dps, and be able to nuke capacitor.(it can’t do all this in one fit but the versatility is there.)
If it was up to me the widow would lose the 4% shield resist and replace it with a 5, 7.5, or 10% bonus to sensor strength. This would pair well with its ecm burst role and and prevent the insane 533k ehp while still having 2free mids (with t3 links) the widow is already the hardest blops to catch. A faction burst gives you a 100% chance to break the lock of anything with a lach sensor strength (36) or lower within 30.5km. Now this is a really good dynamic especially with the group jump mechanics. But it should not get the most powerful burst tank on top of it. With a widow you’re often racing the jump reactivation timer if you manage to turn the tables.
(Also if it was up to me I’d only give the widows bonus to the burst. I feel it would be less of a trap for pilots trying to fit it with regular ecm and like i pointed out with the nuets on the redeemer it steps on the toes of the recon. However i know I’m not in the majority with this opinion)
The panther is solid. No complaints. It does what it needs and doesn’t step on toes. It’s uniquely suited amongst the blops as one you can take roaming or on a camp in ways that another ship wouldn’t be better for the play style.
That said the discussion we were having was more about cyno mechanics than the balance of the individual blops hulls
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From my experience, the Redeemer is not used primarily because of the neuts, but because the lasers have a wide attack range for full, instant damage application, paired with good tracking and tank. That makes it a really good fleet BLOPS, while the other BLOPS are better in small circumstances.
The Sin could get a Neut bonus because that is and has always been its primary role outside Masl and Gulnar settings.
Redeemer is used because it has the highest dps 2kdps is why they are brought.
Just having the highest dps would be fine. But having extremity powerful cap warfare, high tank and high dps is the problem.
Giving the sin nuet bonuses would help but it wouldn’t fit the gallente t2 battleship
Other people can discuss the balance of the individual BlackOps Ships, I really don’t think that is what causes problems.
The elephant in the room that needs to be adressed is the whole Cyno mechanic of the game and the totally riskless bridging abilities. Both enable BlackOps fleets (yes, that means NOT only BlackOps ships) to intentionally select weak targets to safely kill while being almost untouchable themselves. The 99% win rate isn’t a coincidence, they will always drop targets that they can easily eradicate. If in doubt, just check the killboards of these groups, except from a few mistakes or when the BO gang was intentionally used to provoke a response that then could be also blobbed with FAX and Dreads, they never seek challenging fights.
Do not believe anybody who tries to tell you that the target could have “scouted” them or should have “prepared” for them. It’s nonsense. You can easily test it by using Dotlan and check the Range of a BlackOps, it has easily 50, 60, 80 systems in Jumprange. No small gang can scout that, especially not these days when multiple groups of different timezones can be active that are using them. Also do not believe anyone who tells you that checking chars in local would help, in times of SkillInjectors and SkillExtractors, AlphaTraining and all that stuff fresh cyno chars are being breeded all day long and they can be replaced every some weeks with fresh alts. The money needed for this is absolutely peanuts for these groups. And even if, what shall a small newbro gang of BCs or Cruisers do if an Arazu of Snuff is following them? Dock up and log out? Go back to homebase and spin ships? Only do Sniping/Kiting to prevent being blobbed by a magic teleporter? Come on…
The solutions are pretty obvious:
The Cyno mechanic has to be changed back to the old balance that was in existence when the mechanic was originally introduced (aka from lighting the cyno to the arrival of the reinforcements at least 30 to 60 seconds have to pass, so the dropped side has a reaction window). That makes the reinforcement of a larger fight still viable, bypassing enemy lines is still possible, attacking slow or stationary targets like Capitals/Supercaps/Orcas/Rorqs/Marauders or Structures is still possible. But it makes dropping solo players or smaller gangs very hard, because they would most likely escape before you can pin many them down or they deagress and jump/dock up.
The Bridge mechanic needs to be completely abolished and replaced by a Conduit Jump Mechanic: If the BlackOps (or Titan) wants to push smaller ships with it, it has to expose itself by jumping as well. No reward without risk.
Other than that, I have little to say here, because those two points are what is hurting the game.
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Polarized Redeemers? Well, they aren’t being used in fleet settings at least. The more typical 1.2k with Conflag is in the same range as the Panther, Widow and Marshal.
The bonuses need to fit the best usage scenarios, not some archaic mindsets. You could also give it some range bonuses for hybrids instead of this useless rep drone bonus, but that still won’t change its usage away from being the prime neutralizer for small settings.
Having personally witnessed well orchestrated counter drops and the loss of our entire 5 BLOPs wing agains an unsuspicious Marauder calls your blanket denial into question. If you only look at this from the SNUFF perspective in low sec, your view on BLOPS ignores all the other scenarios.
That makes bomber cynos completely unviable and thus space way too safe for ratters as it is much easier to catch Force Recons with bubbles compared to bombers. Even then, 30 seconds delay until ships can be bridged on a tanked Force Recon is enough time for a Marauder to kill it.
Redeemer - 6x turrets (50% RoF; 12x turret effective)
Panther - 5x turrets (25% RoF, 50% damage; 10x turrets effective)
Sin - mess
Widow - 5x launchers (37.5% RoF; 8x launchers effective)
…
Redeemer
• 7h (-1), 5m (+1), 7l; 5 turrets (-1)
Black Ops:
• 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed
• 10% bonus to Energy Nosferatu and Energy Neutralizer drain
Amar Battleship:
• 10% reduction in Large Energy Turret activation
• 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret rate of fire
Widow
Black Ops:
• 40% bonus to ECM Target Jammer and ECM Burst Jammer strength
• 20% bonus to sensor strength (-shield resistances)
Caldari Battleship:
• 10% bonus to Rapid Heavy, Cruise and Torpedo rate of fire
• 10% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo velocity
Panther
• No changes
Sin
• Unsure of this one. Full drone boat? Hybrid?
What about a HS mod able to be fit to EAF recons and T1 ewar cruisers that when activated would reduce cyno activation time by 100% on any ship in range. Causing any activated cynos to go into cool down.
If you’re fast enough you could prevent anything from jumping or some of the fleet from jumping.
There could be two mods. A t1 that has a 10.5 minute cooldown. Each level of the skill reducing it by 10% until its at 5.25 minutes
And a t2 with an 80s cooldown reduced to 40s
EAF and recons could fit the t2 t1 ewar frigs could fit only the t1.
Any ship can only fit a max of 1 t1 and 1 t2.
This keeps the covert cyno advantage of being able to bypass jams by lighting a covert cyno and if that’s countered light their regular cyno. Or try to bait out the jam with the regular cyno first then covert.
But still put the advantage in the defenders favor if they are fitting both jams to one ship.
It also means if you want to drop on a fleet using one of these ships you have to decide if you want to kill them before lighting the cyno.
And will give more use to these ships in small gangs that currently have a hard time justifying ewar cruisers over an extra dps.
Thats the 1% accident where the droppers picked a target without knowing it had more backup than they could handle. Thats totally irrelevant when the 99% of all other drops hurt the space so much, that nobody except hotdroppers or those belonging to large groups with escalation potential can live there. And you can rest assured, this drop would have never happened if the droppers would have known that this “unsuspicious Marauder” had backup. As said: those droppers don’t want fights, they want easy kills, and they hoped that Marauder would be one.
EVE does not need such a mechanic, especially if this mechanic makes a whole region of space inhabitable for those who cannot (or want not) escalate any engagement. It hurts the game. If those droppers would really want PvP, they could easily get it the classical way. Oh wait, unless they have a name to be just cowardly blobbers.
First: I already explained in the other topic that Covert Cynos would be faster than normal ones. Under my Concept, Bombers could be on grid at ~13 seconds. But only Bombers, not the T3 support. Not the BlackOps.
Second: I honestly think that exactly this mindset is the source of the problem. You somehow believe that you should be able to jump your fleet from 10 Lightyears away on a single ratter. I think you shouldn’t. If you want to kill him, move your fleet, best speed. Why is that better? Because you can be seen, others can decide to interfere and target your fleet while it is on the move. You have to compete with others for the kill. Maybe they jump on you while you are fighting him. Magic Teleporters remove all that. It’s just a Blapkill. This Marauder Pilot has zero chance of surviving if he is in Bastion when your Arazu enters the system, you will just CynoUp, bring your fleet and he dies. You lose nothing. You had zero risk. Thats not balanced and thats why it should be removed. All those “Black Ops Groups” (which is actually a badge of shame) can go to Null and ruin that space if they want, should they harass all the big Nullblocks, those have an own Cyno Umbrella, maybe they don’t get a 99:1 win ratio there. But LowSec once was crazy good and its awful crap now with all this hotdropping.
First let me tell you that I really appreciate the calmness and your try to be constructive. Its rare on these forums and I like that a lot.
Regarding your idea: We can talk for hours about details, but the main problem stays: The sheer “threat” of being hotdropped out of thin air by basically any unknown char in local (as already said: Cynochars can be made in no time for peanut money, I could actually make 3 of them this evening with zero zkill record if I wanted to) is the problem. As long as this threat is always present, no matter what you do, Lowsec will not get back it’s former population. The fewest people want to live there. The fewest people want to travel there. Because its HotdropLand™. Thats why large parts of it are either empty or filled with semi-afk 4000days-in-NPC-corp people who are docked 90% of the day, some gatecamps of groups that will easily throw a dozen Caps on you if you engage them, bored Smartbomb-Campers that use multibillion ISK ships to kill Shuttles or baits for hotdroppers (FW areas excluded, but Cynos are restricted there, see a pattern?).
Sorry, bandaid won’t help here. If you want Lowsec to regain the glory it once had, restrict Cynowarfare harshly. Add enough delay so moving target can’t be hit by Hotdrops, but Capitals or Structures can. Big groups could still battle it out with all their BO fleets and Caps if they want.
And those who want to use their BlackOps stuff on single targets have whole Nullsec to do that. But Lowsec should serve as PvP training area where even Newbros in simple T1 Cruisers and BCs can learn to roam around and battle other gangs, camp a gate here and there, shoot a POCO or a POS or a Citadel here and there to poke someone - without being obliterated by a bridged in T3/BO gang as soon as they are spotted.
Right and this would give much greater control over that threat to the defending party.
The reason low is how it is, isn’t cynos. It’s because you have mostly unrestricted engagement but no real system control. But this is the aspect the people who do live in ls are looking for.
WH,Trig,NS you have all the tools you need to lock down and control nearly all risks in a system. LS, and HS are unique in that this isn’t possible, or at least not practical. It’s why small groups are still able to thrive in ls.
It’s also not as dead as you make it out to be. There are dead areas in ls but there are also very lively and active areas of ls that are facilitating nearly all forms of pvp from 1v1 to larger capital fights.
LS is probably the most dynamic area of space trying to limit that dynamic would be a negative not a positive.
Well, we can leave it be at this point. I sincerily believe you are not around for long enough to have really witnessed what a “thriving LowSec” means. It was once the best space to live in, now it’s the worst. We may talk again in 10 years. Or not. I don’t really care. I will care for LowSec again, when Cynos have been nerfed to the ground. And if not, I will keep ignoring that part of the game like thousands of others, because it simply hurts to see it in it’s current state. Because I have actually lived there when it was healthy, vital and worth diving into.
Goodbye. Thank you for the discussion.
Iv been playing since 05 the only area of space iv lived in more than ls was wh.
My guy where have you been?
Before implants and drugs you can get 2kdps out of a deemer with mega pulse II not polarized. Polarized is just shy of 2.5k
If you’re talking cold deemer is still 1.8k with mega
A widow struggles to break 1.6 with heat and that’s using torps. More realistically with rapid heavies you’re getting maybe 1.4-1.2
You cannot move a blops fleet “best speed”. taking gates is not an option for BLOPs, unless you are SNUFF or INIT maybe. For all the other people that use only a handful of players, this proposal and idea behind it is ludicrous.
You misunderstand: I do not talk about dropping bombers on targets, I talk about using the bomber as cyno. Under your scenario, this is completely unviable.
This is patently not true, as I have outlined above. Just because it does not happen as often as you want it to happen doesn’t mean it should. The targets have plenty of ways at their disposal to mitigate the risk of getting dropped.
That’s also not true because there are so many Marauders and other big game ratters that you as defender can chose from for the counter drop when your intel reports the hunter in the area. It comes down to you as sov holder being competent at what you are doing.
I cannot find a tank fitting with 2k unpolarized DPS. Even with heat, 3 heatsinks and Praetors, you only get around 1800, before implants and drugs.
I suggest you use other ships then if you are too afraid to move your shiny toys trough the gates. I’ve heard Kikimora- or T3D-Fleets along with some competent Ceptors/Bubblers are excellent for catching Ratters. Oh well, the pilots would need a bit of skill then…
Yes, I want your “Hunter tackles easy target, BLOPs do the riskless kill” gameplay style to be removed. Completely. Thanks for understanding.
And it should be unviable. I want to completely remove this “cheap bomber brings in curbstomp fleet directly on top of the target without any risk” gameplay from the game. Thank you for understanding. Use your bomber for a tactical relocation of your fleet if you want to, he can open the Cyno anywhere in space where he doesn’t get attacked immediately. Yeah, some targets might escape then if they end their Bastion/Indu cycle early. If you can’t have that, use a more expensive Recon/T3 for the Cyno.
I don’t want him to be dropped. Move your fleet, best speed and tackle him the old way. No, not BLOPs. Fast ships, some EWAR, some DPS. Go and actually play a game of space combat instead of corwardly spinning multibillion ISK teleporter ships that will then jump on a single target for a 30second curbstomp. Yes, I want your “gameplay style” of hotdropping ratters/miners to be removed. Completely. Thanks for understanding.
Blablabla counterdrop. All that dropping and counterdropping nonsense simply ruins the game. It only promotes grouping up, playing risk averse by having huge blue-lists that make sure you end up on the stronger side when the escalation game begins. All that hotdropping shall be pushed back to it’s initial purpose: tactical relocation of fleets, ambushing stationary targets or capitals behind enemy lines. I want hotdrops to be completely unviable to disturb the normal (non-cyno) subcap-gameplay of smaller groups, at least in LowSec. You’d have 3300+ NullSec systems to do your shenanigans, that should be enough. Thank you for understanding.
And yes, I am aware that you don’t like that. I don’t care, I don’t like it how it currently is, because it ruins the game.
Your game maybe, not my game. What you want is completely safe areas of space as it becomes very easy to lock down pockets of space with bubbles and minimal defensive efforts if things like easy dropping on careless targets won’t be a thing any longer.
Good to know. As if null sec wasn’t safe enough as it is.
What? Do I write chinese? (no offense, it’s a serious question, maybe I need to be more clear in what I write). I explicitly said that I talk about LOW SEC. Do your hotdropping alllllll daaaaayyy looooonnng in the 3300+ Nullsec systems. Should be plently of space to have your fun. Just leave LowSec alone with it.
I have experienced an EVE Online (LOWSEC) without hotdropping solo players or small groups being an issue. It was great. It was healthy. It was vital. It was full of people, from newbs to vets, all sizes of corps. In almost every region there were local residents. Independent Corps! Going their own way, doing their own stuff with a small bunch of good friends. And it was possible to live right next to bigger groups, because you could actually evade them by being too fast, too uninteresting of a target, too boring to hunt in your few cheap ships. That all changed with hotdrops becoming faster and faster and more common.
I do experience an EVE Online (LOWSEC) with Hotdropping solo players or small groups being so oppressive that basically everyone who is not allied to a huge bluetrain or is hotdropping/baiting himself has either left Lowsec or the game at all. FW areas being the one exception, but Cynos are restricted there (hint hint).
It’s an easy decision to make what I prefer. You nullsec guys can do whatever you want, I only want Lowsec to become the great space again it once was.
Then only talk about it in a way that makes it clear that you want your long cyno windups as special low sec effect. The way you talked about it would have implications for all areas of space where cynos can be lit.
Are they? Combat plexes have cyno inherent cyno inhibs. Cool. Well, you know what has that too? Missions and exploration plexes in other areas of low sec. Other than that, FW and normal low sec are in no way different. The gate jumps are always a gamble.
Hot drops are a part of the PVP experience that newbros need to learn how to handle them.
Besides:
If you already hate unfair blops drops, what about incounterable gate camps against a single newbro cruiser?
They are. Thats why you can engage there in small groups, without an Arazu being able to just bring in a fleet, tackle your most valuable ships and just end the fight by massacring you.
Don’t change the topic. And yes, I would adress overly opressive camping as well. But that isn’t the topic here. But Gatecamps were never an Issue that prevented people from living in LS, you can always send a scout around to report camps and then decide if you want to evade or engage that camp.