Large micro jump drives are designed to be fitted on "Battleships"
Meanwhile medium micro jump drives can be fitted on “deep space transport ships and combat battlecrusiers” the battlecrusiers you talked about are classified as “attack battlecrusiers”
Isn’t it weird to see description of a module “Able to be fitted on Battleships, except for blablabla”?
Both you and me not seeing this confusing because we are players whom have been involved in this game for a while, but such things are going to extremely misleading for new players who first see the module’s description.
In other words, you understand something does not mean other players share the same acknowledgement, trying to plug something mechanically and unnecessarily complicated into this game will only make eve go with fewer and fewer players.
I also find this annoying.
T3: tech 3 which we have, type 3, which we also have or tier 3, which we had (I think)?
alpha doctrine: alpha damage or alpha clone?
BS: battleship or bull$#!t?
Some of the acronyms are getting quite redundant in this game.
Go ahead and look at the attributes tab of the M-MJD. Last section. “Can be fitted to: Combat BC, Command Ship, DST”. Says nothing about attack BCs, which means that an ABC cannot use it. Simple, right?
BB-only modules such as the grappler happen to include this as well… and interestingly, they specify specifically “Black Ops” and “Battleships” among others. This new class of ship would simply… not be on that list… they don’t even have to change the attributes of the existing module.
So I ask you again. When this EXACT thing already exists in-game with no confusion, why is it that you find it confusing, and why is it that you think other players cannot figure it out?
That is actually not far from the truth. No bastion, because that would be OP as ■■■■ (with a jump drive), but yes, I’m looking for something that can balance mobility, fire support, and projection to provide a good subcap support to a capital fleet.
I would argue that “Combat Recons” don’t really fit the role of blops either, which makes sense because they aren’t blops. They are, however, directly related to Force Recons which are certainly blops-related ships. This would be the same distinction.
The inclusion of the above as a troll does not preclude the previous from also being a troll. Like the above, it was a ridiculous question which common sense would have answered with extreme ease, and it was a plainly obvious attempt at derailing the conversation. Bonus points though, because the troll succeeded - half this thread is derailed. So +1 for that!
I realized, @Aleverette, that I didn’t answer the second part of your post. So I shall answer this now.
The niche is not “blops drops”. Much like a combat recon, while related to it’s force recon counterpart, is more for supporting a HAC fleet than for supporting a blops drop (can’t bridge them), these would be for more of a stand-up fight.
For example, you’ve an objective to go bash a structure. You don’t feel like making 15 jumps in battleships, and you’re pretty sure they’ll have stuff to deal with bombers. Instead, you bring these battleships.
Another example, enemy fleet decides to surprise you. You need to rage form, but all your resources are deployed elsewhere. A capital fleet needs support.
You could fly smaller ships in, or you could jump these in with your carriers, bridging in combat recons along with. Fleet battle takes place. The flip side is these things are high SP and high cost; they’re basically your “elite option” for subcap support.
The ultimate role is to fill what a battleship is… a ship of the line.
Also, they are not “more pricey” than a carrier or a dread, even with insurance. You could certainly shiny fit them to be more, but you could also shiny fit a cap to exceed that. A thanny hull price is generally 1.4B, for example. A blops BB hull is 800M. Or at least it was… this new patch will likely change that. Haven’t looked.
(Come on, bring a 2.5b hull price t2 ship into pvp without shinny fit is equal to shit posts on killboard.)
These “combat recon battleships” are still heavily overlapping with other ships in fleet battle and sadly, the “elite battleship supporting gang” you imagined is almost worthless.
If fc want to bridge in recon ships for support he would rather use blops, plus they can bridge bombers as well.
If fc need some more fire power, capitals contain more punch and tank (and capital HULLS are even cheaper) so why bother with a t2 battleship.
If fc really need subcapitals, the money to purchase one of these “t2 elite battleships” could be used to buy 4-5 fully fitted fraction doctrine battleships, so again, why bother.
You may say: “but these battleships offer a versatile option for smaller elite pvp corporation to have a chance fighting against big alliances” Hell NO, beacuse these battleships cannot jump in and out with logis, even 300k ehp can only tank just a matter of time in fleet battle.
Exactly my point. The hull price for a BB is less than a carrier, and both are shiny fit. Net result, cap still costs a touch more.
They overlap as much as an Arty Tempest, Arty Abaddon, Arty Macharial, Beam Nightmare, etc overlap as a BB alpha fleet. As directly said in the OP, they’re intended to fill this battleship role as a “ship of the line”.
“Overlap” isn’t what you should be looking at. “Filling the role with a different set of advantages and drawbacks” is.
By offering substantial tank, sig, and a jump drive (along with the other gimmicks mentioned) it becomes a unique choice. By making it expensive, both from an isk and SP perspective, it does not become a default choice.
I’ve never EVER known a capital FC to call for force recons. That would be utterly retarded. They are not built for fleet support, they are built for blops. You’re better off with electronic attack ships. Caveat, Falcon scales nicely - the rest, no point.
And go ahead and tell me how well a bomber wing will fair against a group of carriers. Hint, networked sensor array. Bombers can certainly play a role (void bombing supers for example) but without proper support those bombers are screwed.
Spoken like someone who has never been in a large capital fleet. I have. A subcap support wing is essential to a large scale fight. Sure they do less damage. But they also have mobility that a capital ship would only dream of. They can warp off in a fraction of the time. They can warp to a ping in a fraction of the time. They can burn around the grid at triple the speed.
There isn’t a battleship in the game that can fit a combat tank and also have a jump drive. Even the Redeemer as the tankiest, not even close to this level of tank. Granted, existing blops have way more gank, but that doesn’t help you win a fight.
Blops can travel very VERY quickly. Literally across the region in 5 minutes if they rage jump. Show me, even with titan bridges/jump bridges, a battleship doctrine that can do that on account of fatigue. Show me which of them will have fatigue for longer after rage-burning across a region.
You’ve apparently never heard of faxes. They’re capital logistics, they have jump drives and triage modules. They generally jump with capital fleets… unless you’re in a dreadball, which wouldn’t have subcap support anyways.
EDIT:
You also seem to have mis-read something I said. I am not saying the hull price would be 2.5B, I’m saying that a semi-shiny fit ship would be 2.5B. In-line with the existing blops ships.
If these ships you imagined are 2.5b after a shinny fit, then they are straight forward op even more cuz they probably will make all current doctrine battleships inferior.
When CCP (Rise) made battleship tiercide almost 4 years ago, he nerfed the “5% resist bonus” to 4% at the same time cuz the tank bonus is too strong (especially on battleships), SO, battleships blocking dscan, have the amazing tanking bonus and a jump drive with the same price as blops? Hellllllllllllllll Nah
This is the situation the ships you imagined in currently, and maybe apply to “t3 battleships” dat lots of people are dreaming about: If they are too expensive, no one would use them in pvp; but if they have an average hull price, then are too strong.
If there are already tons of faxes on field, why the hec I still need these t2 battleships?
As I have already said, they are less cost-effective than faction doctrine battleships in subcapital fights; they could not do enough damage in capital battles; and with so many titan support these days, there is really no need for a battleship fleet to be able to jump by themselves.
Then you might say: “But they can still block dscan!” HA, there are big ass faxes on dscan and with the help of cloaky scouts, who are you trying to fool with?
XXXXXX
When CCP gave dscan immunity to combat recon ships, FW low sec and WH roammers were benefited from the change most. Till now bringing combat recon ship purely cuz they are dscan immune is still not a viable option, I mean, have you seen any null-sec combat recon ship fleet? Certainly I have not. Which means any fleet orientated ships that have dscan immunity bonus are a joke.
ps. Blops are different though cuz the nature of covert cyno and covert ops.
Not true at all. When there’s 500 enemy pilots on grid, nothing’s going to be guarenteed to stay. Not battleships, not capitals, not supercapitals. At that point, using shiny ships makes no sense.
All current battleship doctrines are useful and would remain this useful. We use arty abaddons for their tank and alpha. These would have inferior alpha, but greater tank. In the above situation, there’s no reason why we would ever field expensive ships… they’re all throw-away at this point.
Or when you have ships in range, there’s no reason to undock the shiny stuff. Or when you need more dakka - there’s lots better dps available than 800, especially from a BB.
Or you don’t have 50 pilots with the 200 or so days of training it takes to get into one and fly it effectively (T2 guns, racial BB 5, Blops 5, JDC 5, etc).
These are in fact too expensive to lose in any significant quantity. Trading a few in order to achieve a strategic objective makes sense. Whelping a fleet of them would be a significant setback.
Which is why you’d be flying them in a full fleet, or with a full fleet ready. Faxes, carriers, probably supers. These, however, have the ability to be a first tier escalation.
And as I have said, subcaps are essential. But your subcaps may be on the front line, and not in range to achieve a strategic objective elsewhere.
They are not there to kill capitals. The capitals are there to kill capitals. They are there to support the capitals. After you’ve been in a few of these fights, let me know, because it’s very apparent from your posts that you either have not been in them, or you have not paid any attention during them.
Why fixate on the dscan immunity? This bonus is merely to improve their ability to exfiltrate, as without probes once they warp to a safe they’ll in a pretty decent place.
Combat recons are for grid control, not their dscan immunity. They’re ewar boats. Unlike other ewar classes (like EAS) they have tank, they have some dps. They can take a fight. Nobody uses combat recons in null because the only reason to use them can be met by the EAS.
The moment you can bridge them into a fight though, now that changes things. Now that nice nimble EAS isn’t instantly your best choice, because the combat recon can get into the fight very quickly - faster than the EAS in some circumstances.
In short, stop thinking that dscan immunity is their selling point - it’s not. It’s one feature that helps them.
Their selling point is their ability to stay in a fight, to rapidly deploy into that fight, and to very rapidly bring a significant amount of grid control into the fight with them that can stay on grid long after an EAS gets pushed out.
(If not justified by the price) Having 800 dps meanwhile contains 300k tank is extremely impressive for a long-range doctrine battleship, go mess around with pyfa and you will figure out by yourself.
Supporting capitals? HOW =D
Okay, let me ask this question the other way: How could Ewar ships actually do something to capitals?
Weapon disrupt a titan’s DD? Or ecm out a dread/fax? Oh, sry forgot you don’t know that super capitals and sieged capitals have high Ewar resist =D
Well, maybe you can ecm some fighters, great help, right?
Plus, there are so many t1 ewar frigates that could do pretty much the same FY thing as combat recon ships in fleet battle, the only difference is that these frigates are much more accessible and replaceable, so whats the point to bring a shinny and crispy recon+t2battleship special ops into a huge nerd battle? They will be focused and taken down no matter what.
That is the funniest joke I have heard today, more please.
The only selling point for these combat recon ships is their dscan immunity; combat ability wise, combat recons do similar damage as t1 cruisers and tank like navy cruisers, perform much worse than HAC/pirate cruisers in every aspect.
Yes I’ve said it’s an impressive ship. It’s on par both isk and SP wise as a carrier. It should perform better than a T1 or faction BB. The price and SP are the balance… you don’t default to ships like this. They’re a strategic resource.
Amazing that you need to even ask, which begs the question of why you would be wasting time in this particular thread when you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
A subcap fleet can support capitals by:
Killing carrier fighters
Tackling capital ships
Scouting, gate camping, slowing down enemy reinforcements
Adding DPS pressure to strategic objectives (like dps timers on citadels)
Adding neut pressure to faxes (bhaalgorns, for example)
Killing other subcaps doing the above
Ewar ships support fleets, they don’t kill capitals. But I’m glad you asked how a combat recon can help deal with capitals, assuming they are being used against the capitals:
Against supers and carriers, they can web, paint, and ECM fighters. Carriers tend to need these.
Against dreads and faxes, they can neut (curse)
Against titans and unsieged dreads they can use weapon disruptors (titans have resistance but not immunity)
Ultimately though their focus is enemy subcaps. Not capitals. They can certainly affect capitals, but it’s not their primary function. Incidentally, those battleships we’re talking about, can apply a meaningful amount of dps to the capitals whilst still being able to fill the above roles.
Yes… when a single falcon can completely defang a carrier, that’s a huge help. That carrier is now utterly useless. And given how easily they can be tackled, they’re now not only useless but a liability.
Interestingly, T1 ewar frigates and EAS cannot be bridged (save for titans). Force recons that can be bridged by bops lack tank and have reduced ewar effectiveness, while still having substantial cost.
Regarding the subcaps being primaried off, I ask “by what”? HAW dreads/titans? Subcaps? If they’re in HAW caps, subcaps just move out of range - with exception of the rook, combat recons can ewar at far farther than HAW guns can reach. If they’re subcaps, that’s exactly what the combat recons are there to control. Yes you’ll lose ships, that’s the nature of a fight. But they’ll be a useful contribution, just like any other ship.
The combat recons offer substantially higher survivability over the rest. They offer some form of utility dps over the rest.
No, the funniest part of this joke is you completely ignored their ewar. They’re intended to be ewar boats. “They have poor dps, navy cruiser tanks, and are outperformed by “combat” focused cruisers in every aspect”. Cool. Tell me how well a HAC can sensor damp better than a Lachesis. Now tell me which of the following a HAC would have the hardest time killing:
T1 ewar frigate
EAS
Force Recon
Combat Recon
If you answered anything other than combat recon, you’re a retard. If you answered Combat Recon, then I fail to see why you wouldn’t see them as having a potential use in a fleet. They’re tougher, they have ewar, and in the case of this thread, they can be bridged right into a fight.
… you have clearly never tried to kill an EAS in a hac before.
also 99% of the time an EAS is better than a combat recon. the only cases combat recon is better is when you are short dps.
their efficacy is on par when it comes to E-war but well flown they are much harder to catch and as such remain on grid longer. Then when forced off grid they are able to return faster.
In a fleet battle though, it’s really not hard to get rid of EAS. Combat cepters for example will eat them alive. A recent fleet fight I was in, the other side was using daredevils to great effect, killing anything frigate sized, and helping to screw destroyers out of their mobility so that the bigger stuff could simply volley them off.
I honestly wouldn’t have used daredevils, and they ended up losing that fight in pretty much any metric imaginable, but our frigates were cleared off the grid rapidly, so the tactic was effective in concept.
A. you said you were retarted for thinking a HAC would have a harder time killing a combat recon
B. that experience comes down to poor fleet comp/piloting
using keres and vigil you can laugh as you screen any tackle and while only dedicating 1/2 the number of ships dedicated too it. these ships can then also flip roles and begin tackling other enemies. with a competent fleet you can manage with even less. combat recons on the other hand a so slow they can be caught by just about anything.
you often see more recons than EAS because recons are so much easier to fly
My fault for poorly wording things. Although in my defense (again I do admit poor wording) the whole thread is about fleet fights. If I had the chance to redo the question, I would have worded it as a matter of DPS ships peeling off ewar ships in a fleet battle.
Fleet comp doesn’t really have much to do with it… if your support frigates are getting killed by anti-support frigates, the anti-support frigates are doing their job better than the support frigates. Absolutely it’s due to piloting, but “poor” or “better” are both substitutes.
As for Keres/Vigils dealing with tackle, that’s purely a numbers game. All it takes is “enough” anti-support to overwhelm the ewar, and the ewar has to either bug out or get popped. As soon as something gets inside of scram/web range, the RSD won’t be effective and the keres will have probably lost it’s prop mod. The vigil will certainly help your dps subcaps deal with them, but remember that both sides are allowed to have ewar.
Consider an alternative scenario, where the anti-support is combat recons. Lets say I’m bringing Lachesis and Huginns.
An Armor Lachesis intended to damp can easily fit 5 damps and a sebo (no tackle, in a fleet fight that’s what cepters and dictors are for). They also have a targeting range of 175k, and a 60k tank before boosts. It is slower than the Keres, which makes it much more vulnerable.
Ultimately I can damp 4-5 Keres down to 40km lock range, where a 4 damp keres can damp a sebo’d Lach down to 43k. Literally 4-5 times more effective on a per-pilot basis. Your keres can lock faster, but unless you can damp them ALL, it’s just a short function of time until my RSD overpowers yours (one of my recons damps one of your keres, freeing up another recon, until the whole EAS group failscades).
But the Keres are very mobile, so maybe they can just get in close to the DPS subcaps and damp those…
Add in a few Huginns. Their armor tank is sadly quite a bit weaker. Before boosts about 38k buffer. But with T2 webs, they can web out to 52k with heat. Which means that your highly mobile Keres are a highly not mobile Keres. Whether sig tanked or buffer tanked, they’re still going to pop like ticktacks.
Can the enemy dps primary the recons? Probably. Their effectiveness depends on their ship type, and friendly logistics. Odds are they’ll be able to use some of their ewar for anti-support and some of their ewar for anti-subcap to stay alive longer.
I fully agree with you that combat recons are slow. When they commit to the fight, they’re committed. They’re vulnerable to incoming fire, far more so than the EAS given their much larger sig and slower speed. But they have a decent amount of tank to take some incoming fire, and they can help DPS the enemy support while friendlies in DPS focus on reducing the enemy fleet to wrecks.
in no way will any of your support frigates survive against anti support unless your fleet is set up for it (assuming the enemy is competent) a griffin is not getting away from a crow without help.
every fight is just a numbers game so that argument is poor, its why I showed it takes fewer of them put together than individual tackle ships. if you have enough rookie ships you can overwhelm your opposition.
Exactly. If the combat recons are both support and anti-support (fit them with high tracking guns like dual 150s, RLMLs, etc… their dps is ■■■■ but they’ll be able to track frigates with small buffers just fine) they fill the purpose of both.
A griffin would have even less chance against a combat recon, as would said Keres and Vigil.
That argument is only true if the numbers are obscenely unbalanced. We’ve won fights with fewer players frequently, sometimes greatly so.
I do not see where you said it would take fewer of them to put together than individual tackle ships… I assume you’re talking about the Keres/Vigils for damps and points, but I do feel I provided an effective counter-argument for the Combat Recons being more effective in smaller numbers?
-.- you… you don’t actually understand the game mechanics do you? or at the very least you have extremely limited field experience with these ships.
a keres has a HUGE advantage over its cruiser counterparts of all forms so does the griffen but with a slight disadvantage. the best thing to use against any enemy recon cruiser set up is a mix of kits and kers their lock time beats out the cruisers allowing them to damp out and jam before the cruisers can even make an E-war attempt against them
Okay, so say we each have 10 pilots in support roles, and 5 anti-support. Since my intel knows you are using EAS, I’ll be bringing RLML Cerbs. Since your intel knows I’m bringing Lach, lets say you’re bringing HML Cerbs - feel free to adjust to a more preferred anti-support with the known circumstances above. Pick whichever reasonable logistics you want, bearing in mind the fact that you’re in a fleet with a limited number of logistics pilots (because when have you ever had enough logistics?)
You have 5 keres and 5 kits, I have 10 Lach. We’ll assume you’re fit solely to defeat the Lachesis (because if you can’t, they’ll defeat you), so you’ve got 4x Mag ECM II. You have a higher scan res, so you get to go first.
You obviously need to beat all of the Lach, so you’ll have to split your 4 ECM modules per ship across two ships each, meaning 2 ECM per Lach. You’ve got a 52.7% chance of landing a Jam on each ship. Except my Lach fit included a SEBO (eccm scripts ftw!)… so now you’ve got a 29.3% chance to jam each ship.
Say you really beat the odds, and your Keres land jams on all but one target. The 20 second cycle time on your Kits gives my single Lach more than enough time to get a target lock on all 5 of your kits even with scan res disruption, and damp them. All of them. Damps > ECM. You could in theory have the keres swap to range scripts on the Lach that missed a jam, but that would require a great deal of coordination - more than I expect you’d get in a large fleet battle, at least within the time required for the lach to get a target lock. It also depends on you getting an insanely good RNJesus roll.
Now none of your Kits can lock outside of 38km unless you’ve decided to swap out a jam for a sebo or an ionic rig(which I believe would reduce your overall effectiveness). You could try and get in close, but the anti-support is going to be literally face-■■■■■■■ them the whole time, so getting in close will likely not be on the agenda. Getting ready to warp out, probably on the agenda.
The 20 second jam cycles end on the rest of the Lachesis, and because you can’t lock them anymore, you can’t jam them again. So now they all spread their damps on your kits and your keres.
The lach being armed with previously said high tracking weapons (dual 150s) are ready to help the anti-support dps anything that decides to burn inside damping range. Sure their scan res sucks.
We haven’t mentioned your anti-support yet, for a pretty good reason. My logistics will mesh nicely with both the mainline DPS and also with the Lachesis - meaning they can all just ball up. Your anti-support wouldn’t have a hope in hell of beating the reps.
You could of course move your mainline DPS to attack the Lach, which would probably break my logistics, but while you’re shooting my support with everything, my support and anti-support are shooting your support (meaning yours go pop quickly and become a non-issue), while my mainline DPS are busy popping yours to below critical mass. Net result, I lose my support, you lose your support and your DPS.
As soon as your EAS are either off-grid or dead, my support starts damping out your DPS, dramatically reducing their effectiveness and artifically reducing the critical mass by a huge margin (say I have 5 left, that’s still 25 of your DPS ships damped). I’m of course assuming you’re using a ranged fit (something like Cerbs or arty BS) because from most of my experience that’s generally what the current meta is.