… Why would i bring that many kits? I would only have one if any at all, ecm is a ■■■■ e-war and has to be used properly. Also if i know you’re going to have so many lach there is no way in hell I’m bringing hml. Your lach would be damped well into ineffectiveness against my support by just 5 keres leaving the rest of them to fit some tackle (they would all in reality be a mix this just makes numbers easier in the hypothetical) and focus on the rest of your fleet. Since i was smart enough to not being hml to a damp fight and brought vexors i have no issue dealing with the rest of your fleet and have no problem if one of your damps does manage to get through
Vexor drone DPS typically sits at 450. They don’t go any faster than Combat Recons (they in fact go slower), so unless you’ve nano or 100MN fit them (goodbye tank?) you’d be relegated to trivial gun dps via rail guns. Which suits my Cerbs just fine.
Your Keres are still killed by the RLMLs as the Cerbs can easily shoot lights out to 95k, while the logistics would really not have any trouble repping through Vexor damage - you could shoot the recons or the Cerbs, they both have enough resistance for the logistics reps to be exceptionally effective. I’m quite sure your keres would warp off and back again when being shot, but in doing so, they create a huge whack of trouble for the rest of the fleet when the Laches are free to re-engage at long range.
As mentioned previously though, one Keres can damp at most one Recon - they’re sebo’d (two damps gives then a 72k lock range). With their range sufficiently diminished, they’d simply swap to DPSing down your drones, unless you were using sentries, in which case the fleet would simply move out of range and regroup. As soon as one Lach was not damped, you can bet it would be damping most of your Keres, at which point your whole thing would fall apart, because I can damp 5 ships for every one you damp. One ship frees up 4-5 more ships, which frees up everything else.
You’d be able to long point, but there’s no way a keres would be able to short point without getting within locking and gun range of the Lach, at which point, I’ll just blow them up or force them off grid. If you can’t scram, I don’t much care - logistics can take care of it, because my fleet hasn’t lost mobility.
The only advantage a Keres has is the faster locking speed. If it can lock first, it can damp first, which is big. But if there are ships shooting at it (especially anti-support) they’ll either die or get forced off. A single Keres with 3 damps can reduce a sebo’d Lach down to 50km lock range. 50. Which means your fleet has to operate at literally it’s maximum distance to benefit from the damps.
The moment the first Keres is removed from the grid (dead or warped, probably warped) that Lach that it was controlling is now free to damp 5 of yours down to 40km. Which means that the 5 they were damping can now lock the rest of the Keres, and damp them out. Until all of the Lach have spread 2 RSD across each of the Keres, leaving you with a whopping 20km lock range. Oh, and also 30 of your vexors assuming the coordination was there.
… you’ve never actually used lights out to those ranges have you
Actually no, we have a RLML fit for our Cerbs but we always bring HMLs. The Cerb has a 119km locking range and a 94.9km missile range. Granted, a high transversal would reduce their range, but navy scourge move at 8438m/s. At 94km the travel time is 11s, which means your Keres can travel an extra 27km if they burn away from me (which would negate the missiles, but also your damps). Burning sideways, I’d expect the effective increase in distance travelled to be somewhere around 20km tops.
Another thing to consider is that your Keres have a locking range of 80.6km. You won’t be further than that away, because hey your ships need to lock too. 80.6+ about 20km is terrifyingly close to my missile range. Any piloting mistakes would result in dead Keres (10 Cerbs doing alpha volleys at those distances).
… that’s is exactly the point I have been trying to make
I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say. I’m inferring that your Keres are going to die in a fire where my combat recons are not… I’m assuming you’re arguing that your Keres are going to be useful while my Lach are locked down, but the text does not line up with the expected point of view?
Your POV is different from his POV. So no, it won’t line up. We are not ducklings or school kids heading to the bathroom. Most POVs don’t ever line up. As they say “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”
Now on the original post - I think two lines of BLOPs would be nice. One immune to d-scan and one cloaks bonused. I’d also like to see Marauders have a twin that uses the races secondary or third weapon system. A Gallente Sentry Marauder - A Caldari Rail Marauder - A Minnie Missile Marauder - An Amarr Drone/Missile Marauder
Yeah. Ships already fill that space but they would be just a little bit different for each race to give us something new.
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Your combat recons will die in a fire too if the enemy think they need to die.
I agree:
They don’t cost much more than a HAC, and the cost is probably on par with a post-insurance T1 battleship. Losing combat recons really isn’t any more costly than losing any other ship in a doctrine costing more than T1 battlecruisers.
Luckly I retracted from this thread before breaking my keyboard and overheating my grammar circuit.
But yeah, generally my points stay unchanged:
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As doctrine ships, T2 battleships are way too pricey comparing with faction battleships.
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Combat recons are just not good enough in fleet battle.
I thought op was talking about making two blops ships where one would be cloaked and the other would be dscan immune
But I have to disagree on tank.
T1 battleships are getting buffed soon or are at least on the docket and they really need to end up in the 250-300k HP range stock or cheaply fit.
If a command ship can hit 1m there’s no reason a Bs shouldn’t be able to
They are the subcapital “capitals” after all. Theyre way to squishy compared to a few cruisers and frigates when they cost 200 times a frigate but die to a swarm of frigates. I’d like to see battleships sitting at 500k for a moderate fit.
I’d like to see more t2 ships though. Still waiting for a heavy assault bc or Bs, and a dscan immune force recon battleship would be cool. But a dscan Bs like that should be a fast glass cannon. It needs to be able to warp off quickly and dissapear since it can’t cloak. It would need a warp acceleration aspect to go with the agility over tank bonuses and need more damage to be able to accomplish something.
Something like a battleship Talos with XL blasters?
Glass cannons with little to no tank already exist. They’re existing blops BBs.
These are effectively combat marauders (adeptly put by Lugh earlier)… except no gank, and buffer instead ofa active bonuses. Lets them sit down in a fight and not get blapped off in traditional circumstances (barring huge alpha fleets). If they’re turning HAW dreads or heavy fighters against you, warp off - the ships have agility bonuses. The D-Scan immunity makes it very easy for them to get to a safe and cap up for an evac jump/bridge.
They would never get a warp acceleration bonus, because that would render the Mach completely irrelevant. That’s their special bonus… try taking that away and anyone who loves the Mach will try to take your balls off.
I don’t generally want more T2 ships (other than this one lol, hypocrisy at it’s finest right?!) but what I do want is to see more T2 ships used in combat.
The biggest problem to me is the simple fact that scale invalidates pretty much everything. You don’t need to fly anything more than a T1 battleship, a T1 battlecruiser, a T1 cruiser, a T1 destroyer, a T1 frigate. In fact as the scale increases, those options become increasingly attractive.
Consider thrashers. You take 50 or 100 of those out, and odds are after your first battleship kill you’re isk efficient even if you whelp the entire blob after that. 50-100 thrashers would shred a battleship in 10 seconds. They’re fast, they’re loaded with guns, and if they die, who cares?
Honestly, if it were somehow possible (I do not believe it is) to make T2 ships insure at the same ratio as T1, that would solve everything… T2 fit your T2 ships and go to town on something. But the amount of fraud would be rampant.
It somewhat happened some time ago but was slashed by CCP because it made T1 close to irrelevant. There was no reason to fly a T1 cruiser if a HAC had a final cost really close to the T1 version to replace.
I’d be 100% okay with that. At least, at this point.
Skill injectors are a thing, T2 ships are no longer out of reach for anyone.
The problem wasn’t that it was out of reach of anyone SP wise but that T1 hulls had literally no niche. Who will fly Caracals if Cerbs are better at everything and the extra cost is pennies? That’s why T2 insure badly.
Which ship is more “fun” to fly?
I know I’d prefer to fly a Cerb 10 times out of 10 over a Caracal. It’s tougher, faster, hits harder, hits farther, etc. Better in literally every way. Just the fact that it is the “progressed” version of the Cerb is enough to make me have more fun flying it.
While it is certainly CCP’s design goal to have every ship be a viable option, all they’ve done is shift the paradigm the other direction - it makes more sense to fly the Caracal, because you can lose 10 of them for the price of one Cerb.
Net result, you only see T2 ships flown in exceptionally limited circumstances. Either they’re cheap (bombers, interceptors, etc) or they’re only used when the advantages are required or the FC feels like swinging his dick around.
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