I agree they aren’t frontline ships. I’m not asking them to be. I’m wanting them to be able to ambush a hostile fleet and not get volleyed off. In order to accomplish this, they must use pre-positioning and hard-counters to win. Unfortunately, as things stand now, they’re unable to accomplish this even with proper planning and trap placement.
The problem I’ve always had with blops is that they’re limited to seal clubbing. They kill isolated ratters, and isolated ratters only. It’s too small of a niche for such an exceptionally interesting line of ships.
I agree - I feel that sacrifice is too high at the moment.
In a conventional fight, that is exactly how it should be… blops fleet going toe to toe should lose every time. But I’m not talking about a conventional fight. I’m talking about one where you’ve stacked the odds in your favour already.
The problem is exactly as you say - they melt, and they melt fast. Extra buffer gives logistics time to keep that from happening, and nothing more.
Again, I agree. I want their scope of engagement larger, and an increased buffer will do that without disrupting their current usage.
No… I very clearly said 150-200k EHP. The 800k EHP is where I feel frontline battleships should be (T1 battleships).
Capitals would not need to be nerfed if battleships had 800k buffers. But that’s not a topic for this thread.
So you telling me you never seen blops drop on gatecamps? or Small scale roams?
If you want to ambush a Fleet just pipebomb. If they warp into a bubble its that simple.
What you would like is that they kill a decently constructed fleet just because of the element of suprise. And Blops is simply made for other uses not that.
Also if you want to see BLOPS fleet ■■■■ ■■■■ up just search for Project Mayhem or Snuff on youtube. It can be done with the current BLOPS without the extra buff to ehp.
No, I’m telling you that in instances where blops are intended to be used, extra buffer won’t change anything. In snowflake instances such as dropping on gate camps, this is exactly where this buff comes in handy and increases their scope of usage.
As for small scale roams… that’s called blops hunting. Anyone gating their blops is an idiot unless they’re going through a regional gate that they’ve already scouted.
Pipebombs are one option, yes. But they don’t work particularly well against HACs. ADC > Prop > burn out of bombs. They’re also not as much fun. (EDIT: and no, I don’t want it “just because they have surprise”. I want “just because they pre-planned an ambush and cut the nuts off the fleet before it could do anything”.)
I’m familiar with both groups. The problem is that any of the circumstances where I’d want to see their scope expanded, they’d end up trading kills. Trading with blops isn’t an option unless you’re filthy rich.
Simple question:
Exactly how will a buffer increase to 150-200k EHP in blops make them too powerful?
I propose that I can discredit any answer you can give.
Currently lets say a Panther fitted for buffer with 2 faction 1600 extender 2 Triamrk II , 2 eanm in low and 2 gyro so you actually deal damage is around 95-100k eh. You wont really get it tankier than that. You want to double that at least which means it will be at least 2 current blops worth of EHP. You can make them more tanky currently but 300dps is not much fun its it? Better drop with a bunch of astero.
So yeah a buff is a thing. Having their ehp doubled is another. I think 100k ehp for a ship taht can deal 600-700 dps. Cloack Jump and Bridge is actually great.
Just so you know. Goons baltec mega got 140-150k ehp. You are simly asking that BLOPS are changed into Godtier battleships which is not going to happen. I think this clears up everything.
I do also believe T1 battleships should have 800k EHP buffers. It would go a LONG way towards making them actually good again.
That said, the Panther in particular is always the least tanky of the blops - it’s also the most mobile so that makes sense. I’d be expecting the panther to have buffer on par with a Mega - this much is also true.
So tell me. If I’ve got 20 panthers each with 150k EHP and 10 T3C logi, where you’ve got 20 megas and 10 Logi cruisers, which one of us is going to win? Clearly the megas. They’ve got stronger logistics. But even if they somehow don’t win the fight, the blops fleet will have lost 10x more than the megas in terms of value.
And tell me which one of thoose fleets can jump across the region in 3 seconds? You cant make them jsut as strong or stronger than T1 battleships with the additional abilities.
And cost should never be a primary motive to change something.
They’re still at a point where if they take a conventional fight they’re going to trade (which for blops is the same as losing).
Cost should not affect balance within their niche. While the matter is presently under debate, I’m arguing that this change does not affect balance (edit: Adversely affect balance)
Point in case, consider a suggestion to reduce the build cost of a super to 200m isk. The sheer mass of the tears would be enough to create a black hole.
And what would break them? This is just stupid. A battleship for that would need around 200.000 raw armor hp. While a battlecruiser got around 12k. Doesnt sound stupid at all right?
There’d need to be some issues around shield regen examined, but realistically, buffer won’t save anything that was going to die. (edit: Logistics is also a matter that would need looking at, I’ve always hated that a good logi wing can keep ships alive forever… diminishing returns or at minimum very cap un-stable logi shoudl have been a thing a long time ago).
An armor battleship (I choose armor to avoid above mentioned issue) can be killed by a single frigate, whether it has 10k, 100k, or 1m EHP. It might take a while, but it’ll still win.
And again, every time you offer an argument I have countered it (with the same general line of thought). Attempting to bow out is fine, if you don’t want to argue the matter further feel free to bow out.
Just know that at no point have you provided any meritorious argument to say that this change would be harmful to the game.
Coming up with absurd random unnecessary changes and keep repeating the same “Special Ambush Scenario” as an argument is not countering anything. This is exactly why it is pointless to argue with you. I did show you that the current Panther to which you said is the least tanky BLOPS is actually close to a Megathron fit one of the biggest alliance use as frontline doctrine. This clearly show that current BLOPS is not lacking EHP at all ,it actually is in line with T1 Battleships in the matter of EHP and further buffing would lead overtaking the role. Now. A BLOPS frontline battleship meta even if 10x more expensive would lead to such chaos. Since the current T1 Battleships need to use Titan bridges or move on by gates to get anywhere. Where BLOPS can jump directly to Cynos without the need of a Titan. This strategically would increase the use of the frontline meta so much because you wouldnt need to move Titans deep into enemy territory for the bridge if you dont want to go across every camp tahts intended to stop you. A fleet that can travel to anywhere with minimum risk and more power than the regular T1 battleship fleet is OVER ■■■■■■■ POWERED. If you cant see that i am really sorry for you.
Now regarding to 800k EHP battleships. You are simply retarded at this point.
Go ahead and quote those? My argument has been the same from the start:
A blops fleet which can prepare a proper ambush should win against a similarly sized conventional fleet. Blops is ALL about the ambush. This is their MO. In order to make this work, however, they can’t be trading kills, which means they need a bigger buffer to allow logi time to rep them (and thus have them not get alpha’d).
No, you said their tanks were even. When I answered, you ignored that answer. If your argument holds water, finish it to conclusion, drive it home. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
You’re predicating this argument on the previously abandoned argument. I’ve countered that argument - and you’ve ignored my answer. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
As I’ve said, the strength in conventional fleets comes both in cost (it’s a lot easier to trade T1 battleships than it is to trade blops) and in logistics. T2 Logi will beat T3C logi 10 times out of 10. Yet another argument that you flat out ignored… likely because you know it doesn’t give the answer you want. Prove to me that a Baltec fleet (an actual baltec fleet with gorns, megas, apocs, logistics, and ewar) will LOSE to an equally sized blops fleet when both meet each other on even footing. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Yet another argument predicated on something that you’ve failed to prove.
I dont know how else i can explain to you that current BLOPS got the same EHP as current T1 battleships. And there is no need to buff anything. It seems like this is really hard for you to understand.
20 Panther 10 T3c vs 20 Mega and 10 T2 Logi would end in a Tie with no one dead.
But to qute the heck out of you because thats the meta of the forum it seems. Lets go:
This is ur original part from ur idea. What you forgot to do here is actually compare current T1 Battleship ehp with Current BLOPS ehp. If you would of done that you probably would of realised they currently have the same EHP. And further buffing current BLOPS would put them above current T1 battleships.
Since currently T1 Battelships have 100-200k ehp and Current BLOPS have 100-200k EHP.
20 battleships have MORE than enough DPS to kill a logi cruiser or T3C. Both sides will be able to kill logi cruisers. At the end of the day, the mega fleet’s logistics will hold on longer than the panther fleet’s logistics, which means that ultimately, the megas will have logistics for longer and thus win.
At the end of the day, while both sides will have taken losses, the blops fleet’s losses will be orders of magnitude more painful.
Depends 100% on fit. 150-200k EHP is exceptionally common for T1 battleships. 60-100k EHP is exceptionally common for blops battleships. The deemer is the tankiest of all, and they generally sit around 100-150k EHP.
I understand you want to ambush. You ambush a lone ship or small gang. If you “ambush” a fleet, that means your ambush consists of basically another fleet (5-10 BLOPS arent going to effectively kill 50-100 HACs). Which means, once the surprise of the ambush wears off and the FC gets their ■■■■ together, youre essentially in typical fleet vs fleet combat, which is then using a BLOPs BS as a frontline ship. A role that its not intended for.
I feel that fitting on 1400s is too high of a sacrifice for high alpha. They should have fitting like dual 425mm ACs.
You realize battleships literally teleporting and having built in cloak mechanics are insanely powerful right and rightfully deserves a sacrifice? How is having them be just as tanky as most other battleships, while doing 900-1k dps, can cloak, can bridge and cyno around not imbalanced?
Fair enough, but a panther with some pimp gets to 132k EHP. Add in slaves and youre at the number you want(187k with HG slaves and wiggle room to drop a tank mod for dps).
Triple plate sin is 150k and redeemer is about 132k as well. Sin still puts out 700ish dps as well.
Throw in slaves on any of those fits and youre where you want to be (or exceeding it).
The only one that struggles on raw EHP is the widow. However its EWAR focused and they always have weaker tanks (though it can field a hefty active shield tank of 3kdps/s, While doing 800-1k dps)