We fought CCP, but CCP won!
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Breaking rocks in theā¦hot sunā¦
Amen. It was a lot of fun. This aspect of PVP is completely broken now. The time limit on order changes beat bots, plenty of us humans sat there waiting for the timer to be up to move things. In billions of trading isk, I donāt recall much issue with bots. Maybe I just made better product choices. The arguments by Archer et al work when your goal is to sell stuff acquired personally. This completely wrecks the idea of station trading, which drove buy prices up and sell prices down for the non-station traders.
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Focusing on number two, what market are you talking about? What market anywhere waits three days to update prices? If your competitor changes prices today, youād better have yours changed by tomorrow or youāll be gone the third day. These changes eliminate an entire style of play which was fun for some of us.
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Forgive my rapid replies here but I am just floored at this. By their own data, this was a ~1% of all market transactions problem, at most. Because I am sure many times I was an 8+ mods person. Way to use a nuclear weapon on an ant hill.
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false
Directly from your CSM campaign website: āToo many changes lately are being pushed that either benefit too small of a demographic, or impose unwanted content or even unhealthy emergent behaviors into EVE.ā
How does your expression above jive with the massive nerf on station trading to deal with roughly 1% of transactions per CCP having more than 8 mods?
What do you see as benefits to the end buyer/seller for having less competition for their purchases/products in the marketplace?
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I feel like relist fees are one of those ājust because the medicine tastes bad it does not mean it isnāt good for youā things. Their introduction strongly encouraged players to alter behaviors in ways that benefited almost everyone, from small-time traders to 100b+/week tycoons, and the only major class of players suffering are those who donāt know how, or simply outright refuse, to adapt.
Strictly in terms of player behaviors (not considering market-wide impacts, which were immediate and VERY healthy), here are the benefits Iāve enjoyed from relist fees using a pricing strategy that works with rather than against them:
- More of my orders - both high and low competition items - are completed more fully before expiration
- It is easier to measure market saturation in advance to determine whether or not an item should be sold in the first place - often times youāre better off not selling at all, at least not in a particular market.
- I am more easily able to sell my orders at significantly above lowest price compared to before
- Several hours per week are saved since I went from updating near-daily to virtually never. After refining my pricing strategy, the only time I relist now is when I make an input error or to extend the duration of an order (usually an obscure item that is hard to sell, but I might have made the mistake of putting too much to market if I didnāt check saturation first - it happens).
- In the extremely rare instances I sell to buy orders, I get better rates since buy orders are more competitive now than they were before. (Relist fees has encouraged buy orders to converge toward sell price - this was immediately apparent at Jita within a week of rollout.)
- I take comfort in knowing that those who insist on playing the cancerous penny-game will have their profits decimated
- etc
The complaints I hear about relist fees generally come from:
- those who fail to price competitively, thereby eliminating the need to relist in the future
- those who INSIST on selling easy-to-sell-items in a very short time frame, thereby forfeiting profits for quick but substantially lesser gains. If you relist a high-demand commodity, itās almost always because either youāre either impatient (entirely on your fault), or you didnāt set an initial competitive price to begin with. It is extremely rare for a market to shift so dramatically overnight that you need to relist to an entirely different price point in order to keep up with the ānew normalā.
- those who for some bizarre reason miss the penny game + updating orders multiple times a day and felt these were good, healthy, desirable gameplay styles that should have been preserved
Could this system be improved and/or calibrated? Sure. Iām generally fond of the changes but Iām not going to pretend that theyāre perfect. Yes, Iām running for CSM16 next year, so as a candidate if an alternative idea is presented Iāll consider inclusion in my 250+ point platform.
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Itās pretty unfathomable that a massively increased tax (which does not actually go to anything) benefits the traders.
But what I find most interesting is that your proās are how it specifically benefits you, whereas the cons are about other groups of players. Which runs right foul of your quoted statement above.
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Itās not unfathomable to those who understand economic principles and pricing strategies such that relist fees are advantageous. Iāve already enumerated the three major classes of players who donāt like relist fees: those ignorant of economic principles and pricing strategies such that the introduction of relist fees makes it EASIER to trade and earn MORE profits than was the case before, the impatient, and those who miss the penny game + frequent relisting. The first group can get an education on becoming a better trader in EVE (plenty of guides on the subject, or maybe they can watch The Ozās Twitch stream/YouTube videos to learn how to make Trillions, etc), the second group can learn to be patient (they are welcome to stop complaining about forfeiting profits if they are impatient and MUST sell ASAP), and the third group of players who miss cancerous behaviorā¦ wellā¦
The changes benefit EVERYONE who is willing to wait for items to be sold and who prices items intelligently. It is easier to sell items above lowest price, and there is an increased probability that your orders will be fulfilled before expiration than was the case before. The only things separating me and other successful traders from those who are complaining about relist fees are trading knowledge/skill and patience. Relist fees add rather than subtract momentum to your orders - if you know how to take advantage of them.
Look, before the relist fees were introduced I had more than 900 trade slots that were sitting unused because I got tired of micromanaging them. It was time consuming enough listing orders, but constantly updating them made EVE feel more like a second job than a game. Once relist fees were introduced I thought to myself āFINALLY I can start trading again!ā - trading became much easier, less time consuming, and more profitable (higher margins + orders more fully completed before expiration) since their release. I was a good trader before relist fees were introduced, but Iām an even better one now.
Were relist fees the best solution? I donāt know, I havenāt thought about it to that extent, but compared to the status quo they were one of the greatest ideas CCP ever came up with. I am happy to entertain ideas for something even better than relist fees, but there are few disadvantages to relist fees that arenāt primarily attributed by ignorance/impatience and addressed with education andā¦ well, patience.
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The relist fees are definitely a good thing and imo have made the market more RW, at least in pure trading terms. I do wonder however how this chimes with the whole resource plan debacle. Itās all very well introducing mechanics to make trading a little more realistic and perhaps less bot-friendly; but introducing the whole resources plan at the same time? This has crippled many small industrial ābusinessesā in the game and, whilst the market may in the end correct to accommodate this, Eve Online is competing in the RW against an ever-expanding space (sic), keen for MMO sub dollars.
Thoughts?
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This is less of a question/piece of feedback on the change, and more on how things work.
In one of The Ozās videos, he mentions that he puts his buy orders up in Perimeter. When these buy orders get fulfilled, is the idea to then move those items to Jita to sell? Or do the sell orders go up in Perimeter as well?
Typically, you put your buy orders in Perimeter with a range of 1 jump. People can then sell to your buy order from anywhere within a one-jump radius of Perimeter.
Since most items are hauled to Jita 4-4 by sellers, you end up buying a lot of stuff in Jita 4-4, even though your buy order is based in Perimeter. No need to move stuff, except for the fraction of sales that donāt happen in Jita 4-4.
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Thanks Piotr.
Most buy orders in Perimeter have a range of 1. means they are also visible in Jita.
Also, most buys are fulfilled in Jita.
You only need to ship a small percentage of your buys.
Sell Orders are set up in Jita, because the items, which are the worthy thing, are safe in Jita, while in a player station they may be lost if the citadel is destroyed or out of fuel or the owner deliberately decides to shut down the market serviceā¦
Just saw that Piotr already explainedā¦
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The reason the market looks more accessible is many traders have stopped doing it, allowing all the crowd that could not compete in market PVP, in.
The broker fees are irrelevant - everyone who remains in trading now creates a high number of orders with very low volume in each, rather than a low order count and medium / high volume in each. And we still play the .01 isk game (even with the 4-digit thingie). If you add hauling-trading and mid-long term trading, you can still trade just like before the changes,
You see, sometimes itās ok to take a loss by constantly changing prices to remain on top, and kick other marketeers out. Itās not like the people who initially complained about the .01 isk game have patience anyway. They will eventually go away when they see the broker fee game is exactly the same, but they are losing even MORE MONEY than before trying to stay on top.
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While not a huge fan of most of the March 2020 market changes when they were announced (and I am by no means a major marketeer or anything), some of them have grown on me. And the relist charge increase just means I change prices on orders less and less often than I did before March 2020 (which was already pretty rarelyāIām like the opposite of Archerās 2nd group when it comes to the market, at least.
Oh, and btwā¦ re: your āEve Online is competing in the RW against an ever-expanding space (sic), keen for MMO sub dollars.ā sentence:
Sic is used after quoting someone to say āthis is how the original author wrote this, error and all, I (the writer/editor) didnāt introduce a typo or anything, in case you were confused.ā I think what you were likely going for there was (pun intended) or (no pun intended), take your pick. ;D
And if Star Citizen ever goes gold, that will indeed be a great pointā¦ most likely. Till then, Iām not sure that Elite and that game that was supposed to have MP but didnāt really (oh yeah, No Manās Sky, thatās the oneā¦ couldnāt think of the name at first) have really pulled away too many of EVEās players. Not enough overlap in game functionality, IMO.
And as the impatient people leave along with the traders who stopped (or scaled back) their operations back in the springā¦ thereās more to go around for the patient folk, huzzah!
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Calm down. You think we are in a real world where there are substitutes. There are not. Everything is the exact same item everyone sells. The only thing you can control is price. Its not like you can change the color or make the item with better quality then the next guy.
Pretty sure I am calm? Iām making bank while relisting never. Iām quite fond of relist fees. Talk to the complainers about being calm, not me.
Shall I return to the game? Did they revert this patch yet?