The less people in Jita, the less spam in Jita local when I do have to/want to visit it.
That’s why I care.
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All 3 options seem pretty engaging to me compared to sitting in the hive of scum Jita is 24/7.
I can’t speak for others, but I do all of those and more, and I do trading. I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone who only trades in EVE. Most Jita traders are alts of people doing something else somewhere else in EVE. Why do you assume traders only trade?
I know… it’s so hard to minimize Jita local chat. Such a complicated feature I can’t imagine the dev time it would take to implement… oh wait…
They already have decided plenty of people’s playstyles weren’t right. I could list off a dozen people I used to incursion with or WH rat with who are gone because of CCP nerfing their playstyle(s). This is nothing new, it’s just coming to Jita now, too. About time, I say. Misery loves company?
Gives NS and WH peops a break from being at each others’ throats, too! Variety.
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Ok you haul something , you arrive alive at your destination
I think that would be a hub station and then begin your nightmare
You’ll need to adjust your order and if you think your item was bought at the lower possible price …
Think again …
You’ll take the risk of hauling and then all you see is your item being blocked in the market .
You’ll do that 3-4 times and all of your isk is stuck in the market waiting to be converted in isk .
Now if you are a rich hauler with big pockets , maybe you’ll do fine
Otherwise you right , you’ll have to do something else mining, manufacturing … but in all cases as soon as you’ll have to convert it to isk through the market , same story all over again .
You can be lucky , when putting your order already sold in 1s , but it won’t be like this 
If you think about using the BO, that would probably not be reliable because everybody will use it .
I can tell you one thing, in Jita whatever the order it would be always undercut after 4-5 mn .
The market of Jita will be a big dump .
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I’m not going to regurgitate what I already posted earlier in thread yesterday (it’s all in the 100-150ish post range upthread), but… ofc, I trade (some), too. Almost everyone trades at least some.
The people who trade a LOT or exclusively play the game as a market PVP simulation are the ones who are taking this announced March patch day the hardest from the looks of this thread, so if it appeared I was oversimplifying… I was doing so in response to that perceived reaction from them.
Trust me, when undocked I have all my other chats and my probe window and d-scan windows all blocking the chat portion of local, with about 40-45 visible toons in the local pilot list sticking out to the right.
But sadly, probe scan and d-scan disappear when you dock. If CCP could fix that, I’d never have to look at local again!
Can’t minimize it, want to see the population # + toon list.
Also, I’d only ever blocked about 150 contract spammers in my first 7 years of EVE.
I’ve blocked about 500 hyperspammers in just 2 months of hypernet existing. If CCP had just quarantined off the hyperspam in its own dedicated channel, say, or game section and not let people link them directly in each and every channel but most especially in trade hub locals… then I wouldn’t even be complaining.
From 150 to 650. No exaggeration. Thank god I’ve heard from a few friends that 1024 is only the contact list limit and not the block list limit.
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My trading alt is probably one of those “bot-like” players. When I play the market, I update orders frequently. Because I know I will be outbid within 20 minutes of logging off. So I make my money in the short window I’m actively playing. In addition, market trading is something I can do more often than, say, PvE because it’s something I can do without needing to pay 100% attention: I can have my market alt up in a second monitor while I’m working, for instance. Can’t do that with PvE and PvP.
I’m frankly unsure how the new “four significant figures” and relist fee will affect that. Maybe it will reduce overall competition. Maybe it will simply slow the pace of competition, so instead of being outbid in 20 minutes, it takes a couple of hours. Fine as far as it goes.
But the way the relist fee is designed, it feels like the goal is to simply eliminate day traders, and make the market a place for PvP and PvE players to sell their loot. Even if the pace of competition slows, it’s still going to be way too easy to lose money, because the relist fee is very high and penalizes a certain NUMBER of relists, rather than the frequency of any given relist. If I’m going to eventually lose 10 million on an order, does it really matter whether I lose it over five hours or five days?
Maybe the relist fee should have a time component in it: it goes down the more time there is between order updates. So if I’m updating every five minutes, full fee; if I’m updating once a day, steeply discounted fee. That would solve the botting problem (because their advantage is frequency), without unduly penalizing humans.
If the goal is to eliminate day trading, I guess that’s CCP prerogative; but it’d be nice to have that stated openly so we can all move on to something else, and maybe extract our now-useless skills.
Also, I thought one of the guiding principles of Eve was “active players should have advantage over AFK players.” These changes seem to directly violate that principle.
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Fortunately once you’ve hauled your item to Jita, you can adjust the order from anywhere in the Forge region with the proper skills, you don’t have to go back to Jita (or live in Jita) to keep adjusting the order (should that be desirable past this upcoming change).
It must have been long ago since You would have noticed that almost all that spam is now Hypernet or Contract (often scam) related. Nothing to do with trader nerfs here.
Who do you think the contract scams spam and hypernet scams spam is directed at? All the poor traders and visiting miners and ratters and even the gank tornado pilots… all of them are subjected to it.
Same here. I mostly only trade a couple of days a month but I update orders frequently. I want to get in, get my stuff sold/bought and get out. Orders are time sensitive and I would rather spend some time actively managing my orders to get the job done sooner than to wait a long time for them to fill (or possibly never fill).
Secondarily I put up buy orders that slowly fill in various areas. These wouldn’t be worth placing up with the excessive fees to maintain them. They are also not worth 4x the isk tied up forever in escrow either.
The new world order punishes anyone that is actively keeping on top of their orders. Punishes anyone that has time sensitive orders to meet a deadline. You put up an order and gamble that you wont be undercut and lose your ass in fees or waste time having your money/items tied up.
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I was talking about the margin you hope to get from the hauling .
Whatever you forecast, it won’t end like you think, probably another order blocked in the new system .
The relisting fee is a truly terrible idea and will completely ruin trading.
I’ve been trading as my primary source of income in this game since 2007 at least.
Why do you feel you need to make such drastic changes to the market? Why not make smaller iterative changes and observe the effects?
INCREASING THE COST OF ORDER MODIFICATION - TERRIBLE
Increased order modification costs this drastically is BAD. This change will singlehandedly ruin one of the best parts of EVE: The market. This will make markets far more static. This will be nigh impossible to track for any medium to large scale trader, and means that you’d be forced to ignore market fluctuations.
The stated problem you want to address is that 0.01 ISKing is “always” the best option. This statement is quite alarming, and tells me that no one with real trading experience is participating in this process. It isn’t always the best option, especially not if you don’t play EVE like its your job. Sometimes it is (when the current price is already optimal for the demand), but I update/create several orders every single day with larger changes. A skilled trader knows when to hold steady, and when to undercut more significantly. Larger cuts are frequently the best better ISK/h option.
Increase the amount of time you have to wait before updating an order, and it will have all of the positive effects you’re after and none of the downsides. Make it an hour, two hours, four hours. Hell, make it once per day only. Market bots and other forms of extreme micro-management will become worthless.
Your planned order modification cost scheme means 2 or 3 modifications and an item with a 10% gross margin is now losing money.
Make the order update delay two hours for a start and keep the fees the same as before. Perhaps allow the orders to be cancelled at any time. Then any attempt to circumvent the two hour update delay will cost the broker fees in full, which means it’s not a very profitable strategy.
INTRODUCE PRICE PRECISION TO EVE MARKET ORDERS THROUGH TICK SIZES – EH… OK IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY
Increasing the minimum change to an order value I am pretty indifferent to, this change will for the most part change virtually nothing.
INCREASING THE MINIMUM FEE FOR PLAYER-HOSTED MARKETS, AND ADDING A NEW ISK SINK – GOOD
Increasing the minimum fee on player owned markets is great. More ISK sinks are good.
CHANGES TO THE MARGIN TRADING SKILL – BAD
What problem is this supposed to address? The “scam” where people create orders they can’t afford in an attempt to manipulate the prices? If that really is the concern, and I don’t see why it would be as I encounter this very infrequently, there are much better ways to address this.
For example:
- Cancel any orders where that single order by itself can’t be covered with the available funds.
- Alternatively, when an order is cancelled due to insufficient funds, cancel all their buy orders as a “fine”.
Along with the player owned structure broker fee changes, that would make this tactic quite expensive, and at very least introduce far more risk.
This change won’t affect the largest established traders all that much, they already have the 100b to stick into escrow. This will have a direct negative impact on smaller and newer traders that are starting out.
I don’t see how this is good for the game at all.
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Yeah, right… regular Jita trader falling for contract scam or over-inflated hypernet order? Are You serious? They are aimed at visitors and new players. Scams always target the gullible. And this spam will continue even if CCP would force all station traders to quit tomorrow.
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The changes to margin trading favours whales. I have 12 mil ISK in escrow but only 5 mil liquid. As a station trader this works because you never get all your buy orders met, and rarely do orders come in that I can’t actually afford. With the change, I have to tie up all my ISK for less than half the buy order potential. T
The other issue is that the relist fee adds extra complexity for figuring out whether changes to orders would be profitable. It’s already sometimes hard enough to quickly figure out whether a margin will be profitable. Now it’ll be even harder. External tools will be required to make the calculations easier, but this would slow down station trading and make it a lot more cumbersome.
I’ll wait and see how it works out in practice, but I’m not optimistic about these changes. I loved the trading aspect of EVE, despite its flaws. Now I feel like it will have even more flaws and less to like.
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It is funny to see that you can’t have a small answer in reaction of all these changes .
Any of the change in itself should have its own topic .
I don’t like them but as a real eveonline player I like the tears , the drama .
the isks are not a problem anymore so I won’t be really impacted by them.
If the idea is to move the player from the hubs to a player controlled station,
it will push slightly more people but not that much.
But there will be a big bubble with all the items being sold ,
knowing the players , they will after a certain time to liquidate at any price their orders .
That would be funny, superbe occasion for the wealthy to grab all the " at lost" sold items .
Possible strategy : blocked the sell of an item ( which follows a certain trend) , precipitate the price fall
After the “Blackout” last summer for the pvp’er, here come the blackout for the traders
This is chaos .
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I think you hit the nail on the head right there.
A lot of so-called non-traders cheering right now, but…
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…but what?
The crybabies will quit the market thinking the world is ending and everyone else with functional brains stick around and make more profits? Because that’s my plan right now.
Thank you for this post, Danmal - it contains wisdom and very good ideas how to do it right. Unfortunately from experience over the past few years, CCP will not read anything on the forum and go ahead as posted in the Dev Blog regardless - screwing over lots of players while completely missing their stated goals…
Btw, has anybody noticed that with their current formula and example #1 an undesirable action like undercutting somebody else’s sell order (admittedly not by 0.01 ISK any more as per new rules) actually gets rewarded by a lower fee as in that case the first term of the formula is zero?
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I actually wonder if the true motivation behind all this is to save on server costs/transaction overheads. The real goal being to try and delay upgrades to market server resources, or even justify a downgrade in resources.
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