Broker Relations

Yeh, Xeux, that’s roughly my thinking.

However, option 1 (buy now) won’t always work. There are generally enough common items on the market, at least in Jita, but there are still occasional shortages. Obviously, some items are more rare, and shortages are more common, especially in smaller markets. These changes will make such shortages more frequent, and that could make the game more interesting, but it could also be really annoying.

Right now, people are comfortable placing orders on the market, and they might not complete for a year or more. However, with the new taxes, there is a lot of pressure to complete within 90 days. This will greatly discourage both buy and sell orders, especially when people are locked into their original price due to the relist fee.

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Seems like back in around 2014 they got fed up with the really good traders, and embarked on a 5+ year journey to de-legitimize them (probably just bots!) And make them go away without flat out telling people to stop playing eve the way it was meant to be played

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Do they not have taxes in Iceland or something? These guys seem to think that raising taxes is going to improve our lives. Why don’t they just reduce the bounty payouts that are the root cause of the inflation problem?

People shouldn’t be making money killing NPCs anyway. Dumb. What is next? We get skill points for blowing them up? It makes no sense.

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I wouldn’t have an issue with simply higher taxes, if they want to suck isk out of the economy, that’s fine. However, I’m wary of the increased tax on adjusting an item’s price. Imagine trying to run a real-life store, but you have to pay that kind of tax everytime you want to change a price. The market will have a hard time adjusting to changes in consumer demand.

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The problem with these high taxes is that they get charged on everything, not just finished goods - which has some very major consequences. Anybody that can avoid the market until the final sale would want to do so.

In real life you get tax deductions - meaning you do not pay those intermediate taxes.

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Their goal is simply to make it extremely difficult / not possible for those who are among the top tier traders. This is how they are doing it, and it makes total sense given their goal.

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The only real constraint is the five minute delay before an individual order can be modified, but this is relatively easy to minimize for a trader with many order slots. As a result, the optimal strategy becomes “Always create your orders at 0.01 ISK above/below the current best order, and always update your order ASAP by 0.01 ISK if it isn’t the highest buy or lowest sell.”

Whoever wrote this is clearly not an experienced trader. Anyone who is competent at trading is not .01 isking their trades. On something priced at a million, I might go up or down tens of thousands, but I’m not going to waste my time with .01 isk.

The graphs below show the data for which modifications were made to unique market orders over the course of 30 days.

This is also problematic, because it appears they didn’t look at how orders were adjusted over 90 days.

SCC regulations aimed at reducing market volatility mandate a cost for relisting a market order

This is also problematic, because (as far as I know) the SCC does not mandate an additional cost for maintaining an unfilled order longer than 90 days. I imagine the stock market would stagnate if people were charged a significant tax simply for having unfilled orders.

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Yes they’re putting a really hard limit on sales orders man. It does seem like the decision of someone who doesn’t consult actual traders.

I am a zealous, ruthless player on the market because I don’t have that much isk and I have to react to every change in the market using my existing buy orders, just to stay competitive.

This is what any normal trader expects when they get into business. Now they can expect to change an order maybe a few times, to react to market forces, and then they’ve shot their whole profit on the order.

Just seems so clunky and technologically dumber. So bots misbehave and we all suffer?

Why are bots equal to us, again? Why are we respecting their existence? Because they pay?

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I would like to see some more discussion here on what trading strategies you guys suggest going forward with these new rules. Some of us rookies don’t have a clue how to proceed given the number of apocalyptic projections we are reading here.

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They have a perfect opportunity here to use this mechanic to stimulate activity in quieter regions by scaling the listing/relisting costs depending on the level of market activity. Similar to how System Cost Indexes work for industry.

A regional discount rate could be calculated at time of each monthly financial report and published within it in an easy to understand format to generate the desired influence on player activity in those regions.

This would:

  • Help seed and support more market hubs in other areas.
  • Get people out of stations more to go chasing better deals in other regions.
  • Encourage hauling activity and stimulate the courier market
  • PVP opportunities
  • More interesting Trade/industrial webs and oppourtunities
  • Give people a reason to go to otherwise dead regions
  • More interesting and dynamic economic activity with actual movement in the dominance of market hubs

Could work something like this for example:

Make the top 5 regions in market activity by trade value pay the full rate for order changes and listing tax. i.e.:
Forge, Domain, Delve, Sinq, Lonetrek.
So this captures the largest 3 hubs: Jita, Dodixie and Amarr.

Next 5 regions pay 75% of the full rate:
Metropolis, Heimetar, Kevala Expanse, Tash-Murkon, Estoria
Gives Hek and Rens, and Tash-Murkon a bit of a shot in the arm

Every region* after that gets a 50% discount
Of course this would include Citadel being so close to Jita, but I can see that would quickly move up the rankings. This makes all those hum drum regions actually worth basing at.

One exception being the worst region by trade activity in Empire. For a bit of fun make this a tax free zone for a 3 month period to give it enough time to have an effect. Re-evaluate quarterly and re-designate the tax free region again to the worst economic region. Would be interesting to see how much of an impact that has, if it spawns new hubs and revitalizes the area, and what sort of interesting inter-regional trade routes develop to exploit it.

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That’s a good idea, but unfortunately I don’t think CCP is open to player suggestions.

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In which case case, things are at a ‘Incarna/Monocle-gate’/$1000 jeans’ level of CCP - player disconnect. It’s looking as though they are getting a ton of input from many voices (as opposed to the usual few that ‘contribute’ to every thread.)

There’s ‘we’ll see what happens’, but then there’s ‘we’re seeing our train heading to a crash but find that sticking our heads in the sand is so much easier than changing course’. These high broker fees do feel like they’ll discourage a lot of builders from remaining in the market. That carries directly onto the players that buy the equipment from the builders.

Good question! CSM?

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Why would the CSM oppose it? It seems like this benefits the blue donut.

Dunk Dinkle

JayGatsby

11h

I disagree.

As an industrialist that buy billions of ISK worth of commodities to use in construction, this change has a significant negative effect on simply buying what is needed.

Without the reliable methods on increasing buy order pricing to maintain most favorable position and acquire the commodities, the indy buyer is faced with a few options, none good:

  1. Buy directly from sell orders - much lower profits or unable to produce final good at marketable prices
  2. Set a large buy order and simply wait an indeterminate time and hope the order gets filled - ISK gets stranded on a upswinging market and no time horizon when commodities will be available
  3. Set multiple small quantity buy orders to ‘ladder’ the market and block competition for favorable position - time consuming and doesn’t prevent higher buy orders coming on top, but perfect for running a market bot that can react quickly and maintain favorable position

As a result, I believe the markets will slow greatly in commodities, and trade will begin to occur outside the market via private contracts to meet needs and avoid fees. Prices will not reflect actual demand and the market will be even further manipulated by players with large wallets and multiple market alts.

Reposting this as I was wondering what a CSM response might be.

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Further discouraging players, resulting in fewer in EVE… I don’t see how pushing CCP closer to closure benefits anyone. The $1000 jeans minds really seem to have dominated CCP thinking again.

Those don’t sound like the things Goonswarm worries about.

Honestly, I don’t have a clue, I’m used to margins which are often under 1% for high volume items (ie: nanite paste). It’s not at all uncommon for the market to swing 20% or more, and orders take more than 90 days to complete. Now I will have to avoid such items, as long-term investment is taxed.

If I have to pay 25% of the broker fee to adjust my price, and 25% of the broker fee every 90 days, then I will avoid trading in items that have low margins and high volatility. Other traders will do the same, increasing uncertainty. Traders will naturally hesitate to place any large orders, industrialists will struggle to find buyers, and buyers will struggle to find product. Markets such as Dodixie or Hek will become even weaker, as large orders will be penalized if they fail to complete in 90 days.

For consumers, this will mean frequent shortages and volatile price swings. Is that bad for the game? I’m not sure, but this will certainly reduce fluidity and flexibility. It’s terrible for the economy. It’s not simply an increased tax, but it’s an increased tax specifically upon anyone who reacts to the market. If you change your price, you are penalized.

Imagine running a grocery store, and you want to run a special coupon for eggs, but if you do the government is going to tax you! In real-life, wholesalers are exempt from sales tax, but in EVE if the grocery store wants to buy more eggs, and they are willing to pay top dollar for the eggs, they will get taxed for increasing the price they offer to the farmer!

CCP seems to be erroneously comparing market trading to the stock market, but people are selling actual product (not stocks, or commodity futures). That sell order in Jita is a store, not a stock. That store is now going to lose the flexibility to adjust its prices in accordance with market demand.

How much will you pay for gasoline, not just today, but for the next 90 days? Gas stations change prices on a daily even hourly basis, by a tenth of a penny, but if the government taxed them everytime they adjusted the price? I think this would create a very stagnant economy, as it would be difficult for people with money to connect with people who have product. Who would seriously want to take the risk of guessing? Every large low margin order would basically become a coinflip.

I think the essence of trading, both in real-life and in-game, is reacting to the market. Not by .01 isk, but certainly by a thousand or ten thousand or a million. Trying to precisely anticipate the market in advance is just speculation, and random luck. By taxing people for reacting to the market, CCP is discouraging people from using the market at all. Maybe that’s their goal, but if so, New Eden is going to effectively revert to a barter system where people are using contracts and haggling over prices.

Hit me up, I’ll buy 1000 Warp Scrambler II, but I’m not placing the order because you might not sell. I will sell 100 Kikimoras, but I’m not placing the order, because if you don’t buy then I will get taxed. We will have to talk and agree on a price for the contract.

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I wrote an email to some people, and figured I would post it here as well.

I’m never engaged in .01 isk wars. People who do that, or worry about that, have no idea how the market works. The fact that CCP’s announcement described .01 isk wars as the “optimal” strategy is indicative that they don’t actually know what’s going on, and they haven’t talked to any real traders. .01 isking is what noobs do, and what noobs complain about, but it’s not what real traders do. I get mails all the time from people complaining about me “killing the margins”, because I actually know what the item is worth, and I’m not going to waste time .01 isking at some price ten or twenty percent off from the actual market price.

The vast majority of Jita buy and sell orders are never completing, even though people are constantly .01 isking them, because they are all too low or too high. Actual traders come in and dump something on the market well below the lowest sell order, or put in a buy order well above the highest buy order. These tend to sell out fast, but sometimes the market turns the other way and they sit there for months. I had some orders take over a year before they made a small profit, but that was fine as it was comparable to what I might earn with a typical real-life investment.

I can understand that CCP would want to eliminate .01 isking, as it is probably a strain on their servers, and I have no objection to the 4 significant figure rule (although perhaps 5 significant figures would be a little more flexible). I generally already do this myself. On an order that is a million per unit, I will generally go up or down by ten or twenty thousand, sometimes 100 thousand, sometimes just a thousand, but never .01 isk.

My concern however is the stifling tax upon anyone who changes their price, combined with the tax upon any order that takes more than 90 days.

With these new taxes, low margin high volume trading is very high risk with very little reward. I don’t think traders are going to be inclined to participate.

I tend to engage in wholesale trade, as that is what I used to do in real-life. Most of the product in EVE and in real-life is being initially traded through wholesale. Industrialists come to Jita with a freighter (which yes, I try to gank), and they want to unload it and get isk. This is important to their business cycle, as they need the isk now, so they can return to their factory and produce more. They don’t have time or capital to babysit a sell order, so they will sell to a buy order, but ONLY if the price is high enough. The wholesaler has capital and offers a fair price, often significantly higher than the other buy orders (which act basically as Jita pawn shops). By buying in bulk, I obtain a discounted price and actually obtain the product, but I also assume the risk of trying to sell the item.

With these new taxes, the risk of the wholesaler will increase. Why would I want to buy 2000 Warp Scrambler II, and resell them for 0.5% profit, if I run the risk of a loss because they don’t sell within 90 days? So I will hesitate to offer high buy order prices, as will other wholesalers, which means that industrialists will hesitate to produce. The market will eventually adjust in some way, but this will not occur quickly, causing instability and volatile prices.

When I place buy orders, industrialists see that I’m offering a higher than normal price, which signals them to produce… but if I don’t place the order in the first place? The result will be a shortage, and sell order prices will steadily increase until the industrialists finally produce and sell the product themselves. However, this will result in a glut of new sell orders, with an exaggerated boom and bust cycle. I suppose what I’m saying is that wholesalers act to moderate volatility, which is why they are exempt from sales taxes in real life. Without capital invested as a buffer in warehoused surplus, the market is inherently unstable.

I’m not entirely sure whether these changes are good for the game, but I am quite certain they will severely undermine the market’s efficiency. Much of EVE is already an economic wasteland, and most systems and regions are almost devoid of trade. These changes will further stifle trade, and it will become increasingly difficult to find reasonably priced items on the market. The removal of margin trading will just amplify this problem. Traders simply won’t be able to make large long-term orders, and so the orders won’t be placed at all. People who do place large orders will find their capital tied up for long periods of time, and they will hesitate to place those orders again in the future.

Several of you stated that contracts will get used more, and I think you are right, but haggling and barter is hardly an ideal means of doing business.

Ultimately, I think savvy traders will take their market business outside of the EVE client. Large orders will be negotiated via Teamspeak, Discord, etc. I might have 50 Leshaks, but I’m not going to post them on the market and risk getting penalized by a bunch of fees. I think for the average player, the market will simply appear irrational, with supply drying up overnight, and prices soaring, and then suddenly products being dumped at extremely low prices. The instability seen in places like Hek will become increasingly normal in Jita. I’m not sure if that’s what CCP wants, or if that’s good for the game, but I do think that will be the result.

Anyways, hope you enjoyed reading my long rant, I’ve been drinking some coffee and trying to decide whether it’s time to skill extract all my trading skills.

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I run a store in real life, as well as in Eve Online, and it defies logic to think that in either business I should have to pay an exorbitant fee, just to change a price tag! Also, who is this really helping? If this whole problem arose because of bot activity, why don’t they just punish bots? Why do they have to throw into jeopardy the stability of the global economy of New Eden?

You made several strong points in your email, and I share your concerns.

As a person who aims to be the fiercest competitor in my niche market, adjusting my market prices each day IS my strategy. I alter my orders between 1-10 times before they sell out or buy out. Sometimes up to 50 times for my most important orders. I don’t change by .01 isk, either. But I don’t change on the order of thousands. I am careful.

The most degrading question lurking in my mind right now is this:
Why are we being forced to give away more ISK, and hurt our bottom lines, and after 17 years being forced to radically evolve our playstyles, just so that we can share space with bots, who aren’t supposed to be here in the first place? Just kickban bot activity, if it’s killing trade.

CCP says “We won’t let the bots kill trade in eve online. WE will kill trade!”

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